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Early head and heart

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  • #76
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I believe in the special creation of Adam and Eve, from dust in the ground, as Homo sapiens sapiens. See for example, "Who Was Adam?" for a discussion of human origins along these lines.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Interesting the Bible seems to indicate that Adam's creation is no different from how the rest of us come about. That we are all made from dust in the image of God
    • Job 10:8-10: Your hands have shaped me and made me, but now you destroy me completely. Remember that you have made me as with the clay; will you return me to dust? Did you not pour me out like milk, and curdle me like cheese?
    • Job 33:4–6: The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Reply to me, if you can; set your arguments in order before me and take your stand! Look, I am just like you in relation to God; I too have been molded from clay.
    • Psalm 103:14: For he knows what we are made of; he realizes we are made of clay.
    • Ecclesiastes 3:19–20: For the fate of humans and the fate of animals are the same: As one dies, so dies the other; both have the same breath. There is no advantage for humans over animals, for both are fleeting. Both go to the same place, both come from the dust, and to dust both return.
    • Isa. 64:8: Yet, LORD, you are our father. We are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the product of your labor. [cf. Isa. 43:7]
    • 1 Cor. 15:47–49: The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven. [cf. Eph 4:24]


    Like Job or David or anyone else, Adam was a clay vessel formed by the hands of the Potter himself, made from the dust in the image of God. So if we are all made from dust/clay, shaped by God and given the breath of the Almighty then this might suggest a literal reading of Adam being made this way might not be the way to go.

    AFAICT we all are the result of having been given birth to by our mothers (not including "test tube babies" who still come from their genetic material). Yet various passages describe us, like Adam, of having been constructed or shaped out of dust/clay. But being we were created by being born from our parents and not literally constructed out of dust/clay this might suggest that the same may have been true for Adam.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      1. Someone speaking about something outside of their field of expertise has no more authoritative view on the matter than a plumber pontificating on the cardiopulmonary system.
      The heart is at least a form of to plumbing.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        The heart is at least a form of to plumbing.
        That is why I usually bring this comparison up.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Well, it does seem that an animal without a stomach would be a primitive animal, which would therefore not have much of a brain.


          I've posted and reposted a description of Fuxianhuia's brain:

          Source: Ma et. al.

          The protocerebrum of Fuxianhuia is supplied by optic lobes evidencing traces of three nested optic centres serving forward-viewing eyes. Nerves from uniramous antennae define the deutocerebrum, and a stout pair of more caudal nerves indicates a contiguous tritocerebral component. Fuxianhuia shares a tripartite pre-stomodeal brain and nested optic neuropils with extant Malacostraca and Insecta, demonstrating that these characters were present in some of the earliest derived arthropods.

          Source

          © Copyright Original Source




          That is complex! And I hear they've trained wasps to discern the difference between colors and more.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          Your 'arguing from ignorance' with the perpetual motion fallacy argument of gaps within gaps with gaps is flawed, because over time new fossil discoveries and research fill the gaps, and instead of getting involved with the actual positive research and efforts to discover the evidence the perpetual motion nonsense argument continues. The following thread demonstrates how new discoveries weakens the perpetual motion gaps fallacy;

          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...er-than-before
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
            And how much of it did you understand when you posted it?
            Enough to realize that this is complex, with a dozen or so components.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Moreover Tours should have been asking biologists, zoologists or maybe geneticists rather than synthetic chemists. It's no different than asking geologists for an explanation on quantum physics. You are simply asking the wrong experts.
              He is well aware of the work of biologists etc., he even says "Stop sending me papers, they are all the same" or words to that effect.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                AFAICT we all are the result of having been given birth to by our mothers (not including "test tube babies" who still come from their genetic material). Yet various passages describe us, like Adam, of having been constructed or shaped out of dust/clay. But being we were created by being born from our parents and not literally constructed out of dust/clay this might suggest that the same may have been true for Adam.
                Yet being "dust / clay" is not the same as being formed from dust, as Adam was said to have been.

                Blessings
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Your 'arguing from ignorance' with the perpetual motion fallacy argument of gaps within gaps with gaps is flawed, because over time new fossil discoveries and research fill the gaps, and instead of getting involved with the actual positive research and efforts to discover the evidence the perpetual motion nonsense argument continues.
                  But this is not an argument about gaps, this is a surprisingly early and relatively complex brain and cardiovascular system.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    But this is not an argument about gaps, this is a surprisingly early and relatively complex brain and cardiovascular system.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    Yes it is both an argument from ignorance and argument of gaps, because you arguing we do not have the predecessors of the Fuxianhuia to demonstrate its evolution.

                    So what,?!?!?! Based on the recent fossil discovery fungi existed 460,000 million years older than previously thought. As I said before we have hundreds of millions of years for evolution before the discovery of the Fuxianhuia. What's the problem?
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-24-2019, 04:55 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      But this is not an argument about gaps, this is a surprisingly early and relatively complex brain and cardiovascular system.
                      You keep saying "surprising" when i already explained that it had been predicted based on an analysis of the existing arthropod family tree. And that it was predictable based on the fact that early arthropods had multiple large sensory organs. And those facts were in the very text you were quoting.

                      There's two things going on here:
                      You're mistaking a biologist deciding saying "this is surprising!" would make for a good press release with something that's scientifically unexpected.
                      You don't understand the biology you're quoting well enough to draw any conclusions.
                      "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                        You keep saying "surprising" when i already explained that it had been predicted based on an analysis of the existing arthropod family tree.
                        As I recall, you said arthropods by definition had these characteristics, because they had these characteristics. Which is rather tautological.

                        And that it was predictable based on the fact that early arthropods had multiple large sensory organs.
                        The question is whether such brains and cardiovascular systems (let's not forget the latter), and we might add sensory organs, are to be expected so early in the Cambrian.

                        This gives much less time for them to have evolved.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Based on the recent fossil discovery fungi existed 460,000 million years older than previously thought.
                          Which makes it that much less time for fungi to have evolved.

                          As I said before we have hundreds of millions of years for evolution before the discovery of the Fuxianhuia. What's the problem?
                          Only the creatures beforehand evidently had no brains to speak of. So the time for the evolution of relatively complex brains and cardiovascular systems is much compressed.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post


                            Only the creatures beforehand evidently had no brains to speak of. So the time for the evolution of relatively complex brains and cardiovascular systems is much compressed.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            It appears that they did have some sensory organs. Do you really think that they had sensory organs that couldn't relay information to anything?

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              As I recall, you said arthropods by definition had these characteristics, because they had these characteristics. Which is rather tautological.
                              If that's what you recall, then you weren't paying attention.

                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              The question is whether such brains and cardiovascular systems (let's not forget the latter)
                              I don't understand cardiac development and evolution of the heart as well as i understand the nervous system. Unlike you, that causes me to approach the subject with caution until i read up on the science.

                              Given that you've been a veritable fountain of misinformation on the nervous system, i haven't yet felt the need to understand what you get wrong about hearts. Only so much time in the day...


                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Only the creatures beforehand evidently had no brains to speak of.
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              and we might add sensory organs, are to be expected so early in the Cambrian.
                              Given that the video you linked indicated that organisms were doing pattern-based foraging in their environment in the Ediacaran, i'm wondering how you think they managed that a without a brain or any sensory systems?

                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              This gives much less time for them to have evolved.
                              Without looking it up, how long do you think the Ediacaran was? What fraction of that do we have signs of multicellular life from? And how well represented is the Ediacaran in the fossil record?
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                Which makes it that much less time for fungi to have evolved.


                                Only the creatures beforehand evidently had no brains to speak of. So the time for the evolution of relatively complex brains and cardiovascular systems is much compressed.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                OK, possibly, so what?!?!?! Moving the goal posts does not help your religious agenda. Will still have many millions years to evolve.

                                Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earliest_known_life_forms


                                The earliest known life forms on Earth are putative fossilized microorganisms found in hydrothermal vent precipitates.[1] The earliest time that life forms first appeared on Earth is unknown. They could have lived earlier than 3.77 billion years ago, possibly as early as 4.28 billion years ago,[1] or nearly 4.5 billion years ago according to some;[3][4]

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-25-2019, 02:52 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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