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Thread: Did Jesus Speak Against Homosexuality?

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Did Jesus Speak Against Homosexuality?

    Not specifically, of course, but by using the word porneia / πορνεύω (G4203)


    1) illicit sexual intercourse
    A) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
    B) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
    C) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
    2) metaph. the worship of idols
    A) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols


    And, yes, I understand that he also did not specifically condemn necromancy, bestiality, pedophilia, non-coital intercourse, or any other deviation from God's standards for human sexual conduct - things that were universally known in the religious community as being forbidden.
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    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
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    Given he appealed to Genesis 2:24 when speaking of marriage Matthew 19:4-6; Mark 10:6-9 we can draw inferences that he saw marriage as between husband and wife. In addition marriage between husband and wife serves as the analogy to the church Ephesians 5:22-33.

  3. Amen mossrose, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedApologist View Post
    Given he appealed to Genesis 2:24 when speaking of marriage Matthew 19:4-6; Mark 10:6-9 we can draw inferences that he saw marriage as between husband and wife. In addition marriage between husband and wife serves as the analogy to the church Ephesians 5:22-33.
    Yeah, no problem with that at all - specifically interested in the word "porneia".
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    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
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    I checked the Greek text and it does not use that word, rather the word used is μοιχᾶται (moichatai)

    https://biblehub.com/greek/moichatai_3429.htm

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    I should have included the reference - thought I did:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 15:19-20

    19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Can't get my Logos to show this, so I'll settle for BibleHub for now:

    matt 15.jpg

    Textus Receptus:

    matt 15 a.jpg

    matt 15 b.jpg
    Last edited by Cow Poke; 05-11-2019 at 01:05 PM.
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    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I should have included the reference - thought I did:

    Scripture Verse: Matthew 15:19-20

    19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Can't get my Logos to show this, so I'll settle for BibleHub for now:

    matt 15.jpg

    Textus Receptus:

    matt 15 a.jpg

    matt 15 b.jpg
    Having checked, the word actually covers all other sexual immoral acts. It's only the KJV that uses Fornication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedApologist View Post
    Having checked, the word actually covers all other sexual immoral acts. It's only the KJV that uses Fornication.
    OK, but we actually have some guys here who are experts in Biblical languages. I don't pretend to be one. Let's let them weigh in, if they will, OK?
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    tWebber Georg Kaplin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Not specifically, of course, but by using the word porneia / πορνεύω (G4203)


    1) illicit sexual intercourse
    A) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
    B) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
    C) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
    2) metaph. the worship of idols
    A) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols


    And, yes, I understand that he also did not specifically condemn necromancy, bestiality, pedophilia, non-coital intercourse, or any other deviation from God's standards for human sexual conduct - things that were universally known in the religious community as being forbidden.
    May I ask why you limit this to what Jesus said and this one word? Here is a more specific word from BDAG:

    BDAG •ἀρσενοκοίτης, ου, ὁ (ἄρσην ‘male’ + κοίτη ‘bed’; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp.ἀρρενοκοίτης; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice list—ἀρσενοκοιτεῖν SibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of ἄρσην and κοίτη Lev 20:13, s. Soph. Lex.:ἀ.= ὁ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοιμώμενος κοίτην γυναικείαν=‘one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman’; cp. the formation of μητροκοίτης [μήτηρ +κοίτη] ‘one who has intercourse w. his mother’ Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9
    The word at 1 Cor. 6:9 is a compound word from "male" and "bed."

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Used in 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:10 - homosexual relationships specifically: arseno (of male) + koites (coitus).

    BDAG
    ἀρσενοκοίτης, ου, ὁ (ἄρσην ‘male’ + κοίτη ‘bed’; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp. ἀρρενοκοίτης; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice list—ἀρσενοκοιτεῖν SibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of ἄρσην and κοίτη Lev 20:13, s. Soph. Lex.: ἀ.= ὁ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοιμώμενος κοίτην γυναικείαν=‘one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman’; cp. the formation of μητροκοίτης [μήτηρ + κοίτη] ‘one who has intercourse w. his mother’ Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSV’s ‘homosexuals’ [altered to ‘sodomites’ NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, ’86, 187–91; cp. DWright, ibid. 41, ’87, 396–98; REB’s rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term ‘sexual pervert’ is lexically unacceptable), of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός (difft. DMartin, in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, ed. RBrawley, ’96, 117–36); 1 Ti 1:10; Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27. Romans forbade pederasty w. free boys in the Lex Scantinia, pre-Cicero (JBremmer, Arethusa 13, ’80, 288 and notes); Paul’s strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution (on its rarity, but w. some evidence concerning women used for sacred prostitution at Corinth s. LWoodbury, TAPA 108, ’78, 290f, esp. note 18 [lit.]), or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service (s. Wright, VigChr 38, ’84, 125–53). For condemnation of the practice in the Euphrates region s. the ref. to Bardesanes above.—RBurton, The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night, 1934, vol. 6, 3748–82, lit. reff. and anthropological data relating to a variety of Mediterranean cultures; DBailey, Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition, ’55; KDover, Greek Homosexuality ’78; RScroggs, The NT and Homosexuality ’83; JBoswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality ’80; JBremmer, Greek Pederasty, in JBremmer, ed. From Sappho to de Sade2 ’91, 1–14; ECantarella, Bisexuality in the Ancient World ’92.—Pauly-W. 8, 1333f; 1459–68. DELG s.v. ἄρσην. M-M.


    But - as will be noticed - these aren't said by Jesus. Generally (rule of thumb) it can be considered that Jesus spoke against laws that were wrongly interpreted or applied, but laws that were acceptable weren't addressed. It does take consideration of the broader implications of what he DID say to draw proper conclusions though.
    Last edited by tabibito; 05-17-2019 at 08:20 PM.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
    May I ask why you limit this to what Jesus said and this one word? Here is a more specific word from BDAG:
    Certainly! That just caught my attention, is all.

    Welcome to Tweb.
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