Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Alabama Abortion Ban:

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    That sort of confusion is NECESSARY for abortionists to be able to kill a human life.
    What doctors want politicians to know about abortion:


    The thing that I wish were better appreciated is that abortion is healthcare ― and any attempt by policymakers to separate it from the rest of medicine is artificial. Women are more sure of their decision to have an abortion than are patients who go through other comparable medical procedures. In terms of safety, abortion is at least as safe or safer than similar clinic-based procedures that are not regulated as stringently as abortion. Like other healthcare, health insurance, including Medicaid, should cover abortion care, as is done in most other countries where abortion is legal. And finally, abortion training needs to be a part of medical and nursing education everywhere ― because it’s healthcare.

    The public approaches the decision of abortion with sympathy and sadness regardless of the situation. Women chose abortion in order to improve the lives of themselves and those they care about. Instead of shaming women, intentionally or unintentionally, we should be empowering and celebrating all women who make decisions that are right for themselves and their families.

    I want policymakers to know that abortions remain safe in this country due to evidence-based practices based on rigorous and robust research. Abortion will only continue to remain safe in this country when there is protection of the access that women have to safe abortion services. People need to know that abortion providers, whether they are specialists, OB-GYNs, Family Medicine providers or advanced practice providers, do not “have fun” or “enjoy” performing abortions ― we perform abortions because it is a fundamental human right to make decisions about one’s reproductive health. We are passionate about defending that right.

    My biggest frustration about the abortion debate in today’s political climate is that so many incorrectly think that abortions are a one-size-fits-all experience for women. Not only are actual abortions quite varied ― they range from medications to surgical procedures ― but most importantly, the reasons that a woman chooses to have an abortion couldn’t be more diverse. In my career, I’ve cared for women who became pregnant as a result of rape, women with serious medical problems for whom pregnancy would be life-threatening, and women who discovered late in pregnancy that their baby could not survive after birth. Some of these women decide to end their pregnancies and some do not, but the point is that they have the right to decide. For all of these women, and for all women, abortion must remain a safe and legal option.

    I wish that policy makers understood that poor women are thinking of their current children when they have an abortion. Many of the women I see are living day-to-day to get food for their families. They work hard to ensure their children have food/clothes/a place to live. When Medicaid and other insurance companies don’t pay for women to have abortions, children go without necessities. If we want to lift families out of poverty, we should cover their healthcare needs, including abortion care.

    Less than 1.5 percent of abortions are performed after 20 weeks gestation in the United States. Many women seek these later abortions for fetal structural abnormalities. These malformations of the brain, heart and other organs are very often not compatible with life and cannot be diagnosed until the “anatomy ultrasound,” which is performed at 18-20 weeks gestation. Women who live in the 15 states with 20 and 22 week abortion bans are unfairly burdened by the increased cost of travel, time away from work and family, child care and stigma.

    Women are referred to another city an hour and 15 minutes away by car. Women who have only bus for transportation, who have small children to bring with them, whose two-day procedures will require an overnight stay in a hotel they do not have money for. Most of these women are forced to carry to term and have a baby they do not want, cannot care for, know will drain already limited family resources. Law does not mean access.

    I think one thing to know is that the majority of women present for abortion care are nervous and have guilt about talking to a doctor about abortion, but that a majority of them feel relief once the abortion is over. There are a lot of misconceptions (as evident in the debate) about what abortion is, the risks, and how it will feel for a women going through it. This creates a lot of stigma around the procedure and the care they get (often I’m told “you are much nicer to me than I thought you would be” because these women expect to be treated poorly). I would want policymakers to know that it is important to understand that laws restricting abortion develop a stigma that hurt women.

    My greatest frustration about discussion of abortion in the public sphere is the lack of diversity of women’s perspectives and experiences. Anti-choice advocates have a very simple narrative: every pregnancy is a blessing, and every abortion is bad. My patients’ lives are so complex, and women end pregnancies for so many reasons, from the heartbreaking to the mundane. I wish that policymakers understood that legal and financial barriers to abortion do not end abortion, but only make it more burdensome and dangerous.

    My role as a reproductive psychiatrist is to treat women who are suffering from conditions like depression during pregnancy. I also see those who have to make a difficult termination decision due to fetal anomalies, for example.
    My biggest frustration is that the debate centers around this one small procedure, and yet we have not nearly enough debate on how to treat those who continue their pregnancies and struggle postpartum, [as well as] the families who suffer with so many different psycho-social issues.

    As a physician who provides abortions, I have observed that every single woman who comes to me for this care wishes things were different. That there weren’t a lethal fetal anomaly affecting her pregnancy, or that there were still a heartbeat. That she did not have to live with the memory of a sexual assault. That she had the time, energy, and resources to be the best parent she could be at this very moment, because that would change everything. She alone walks in those shoes, and I trust her to decide.
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...PpTToN61SrrOMA
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      What doctors want politicians to know about abortion:
      Thanks, ff, but I'm a whole lot more concerned with what God wants doctors to know about abortion.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dittfloor View Post
        That is an example of a typical misrepresentation, particularly with regard to the use of the words ‘innocent’, ‘human’ and ‘life’.
        In that case, your argument is no longer with me but with the facts of science and the law.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Thanks, ff, but I'm a whole lot more concerned with what God wants doctors to know about abortion.
          Why would you think that? Surely, that is between God and the doctors. I don’t think it’s your job to be concerned on God’s behalf; you are not His deputy. The right to autonomy overrides any such concern.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            Why would you think that?
            Because all doctors one day will answer to God for their deeds.

            Surely, that is between God and the doctors.
            Well, supposedly, abortion is between a woman and her doctor, but that doesn't keep YOU from chiming in.

            Besides, I'm commissioned to speak on God's behalf.

            I don’t think its your job to be concerned on God’s behalf; you are not His deputy.
            As a Pastor, I kinda am.

            The right to autonomy overrides any such concern.
            Yet, here you are voicing YOUR concern.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post
              What doctors want politicians to know about abortion:

              https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...PpTToN61SrrOMA
              When you said this was from a doctor, I was hoping for a clinical, fact based discussion about the reality of abortion from the medical perspective. Instead, it's just another liberal screed presenting the same appeals to emotion that could have been written by my Hillary supporting next door neighbor. I mean, I would have at least expected a physician to tackle the thorny issue of when human life begins,, and at what stage of development it ought to be immoral to kill that human life.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                When you said this was from a doctor, I was hoping for a clinical, fact based discussion about the reality of abortion from the medical perspective. Instead, it's just another liberal screed presenting the same appeals to emotion that could have been written by my Hillary supporting next door neighbor. I mean, I would have at least expected a physician to tackle the thorny issue of when human life begins,, and at what stage of development it ought to be immoral to kill that human life.
                I saw it was Huffpo, and smiled, especially when I got the warning...

                "Before you continue...

                HuffPost is part of Oath. Oath and our partners need your consent to access your device and use your data (including location) to understand your interests, and provide and measure personalised ads. Oath will also provide you with personalised ads on partner products....


                No thanks.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  When you said this was from a doctor, I was hoping for a clinical, fact based discussion about the reality of abortion from the medical perspective. Instead, it's just another liberal screed presenting the same appeals to emotion that could have been written by my Hillary supporting next door neighbor. I mean, I would have at least expected a physician to tackle the thorny issue of when human life begins,, and at what stage of development it ought to be immoral to kill that human life.
                  Anyone who eats meat reared for food production, or hunts for wild animals with a rifle, or catches fish in a river and maybe does some of these things for his personal entertainment is not in the least bothered by killing. If you have ever supported a war or the death penalty, you are not bothered, much, about killing human beings.

                  What remains to explain your position is a foetus fetish combined with a strong desire to dominate women, keep them in line and punish them for transgressions, and have the same control over their reproductive lives as a farmer would have over his sheep.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

                  Comment


                  • There is a palpable difference between killing in war, and executing a criminal (in which cases deliberate aggressors are being dealt with) and abortion - which overwhelmingly is a matter of killing for the sake of convenience. Likewise - killing for food isn't the same as killing for the sake of convenience.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      Anyone who eats meat reared for food production, or hunts for wild animals with a rifle, or catches fish in a river and maybe does some of these things for his personal entertainment is not in the least bothered by killing.
                      That's just beyond silly. Ignorant, even. Killing animals is not on a par with killing humans.

                      If you have ever supported a war or the death penalty, you are not bothered, much, about killing human beings.
                      I'm thinking you're simply making goofy statements today. Even somebody who supports the death penalty can be quite bothered by it, and somebody who has gone to war often has deep emotional trouble over it.

                      What remains to explain your position
                      So far, your foolishness has done nothing to affect my position...

                      is a foetus fetish
                      so, you're doubling down on stupidity....

                      combined with a strong desire to dominate women, keep them in line and punish them for transgressions,
                      ...or perhaps you're just saying really stupid things for effect...

                      and have the same control over their reproductive lives as a farmer would have over his sheep.
                      An unborn sheep would never ever become a human being, though it might eventually make a tasty meal.

                      I really don't think you're this stupid, so I'm going to have to assume you're deeply disturbed and need help.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        What remains to explain your position is a foetus fetish....
                        Interesting you should use that goofy term, then I stumble upon this article...

                        Democrats are in love with abortion. Everyone has their fetishes. For them, it is the termination of human life in the womb. They celebrate it, they cheer it, and now they want you to pay for it.


                        The Democrats seem absolutely fascinated with the killing of the unborn - having gone from "safe, legal and rare" to no limitation whatsoever. So, yes, with the liberals, abortion seems to be their latest fetish.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Interesting you should use that goofy term, then I stumble upon this article...

                          Democrats are in love with abortion. Everyone has their fetishes. For them, it is the termination of human life in the womb. They celebrate it, they cheer it, and now they want you to pay for it.


                          The Democrats seem absolutely fascinated with the killing of the unborn - having gone from "safe, legal and rare" to no limitation whatsoever. So, yes, with the liberals, abortion seems to be their latest fetish.
                          Well, the debate has gone manically hyperbolic, and one extreme position is met with another. Perhaps the voters will decide what they want.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            That's just beyond silly. Ignorant, even. Killing animals is not on a par with killing humans.
                            To an atheist there is no difference, because according to their worldview, there's nothing inherently special about us. We're just another random branch on the evolutionary tree. But with that comes the inescapable conclusion that man killing man is no more morally abhorrent than a lion killing a gazelle.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              The Democrats seem absolutely fascinated with the killing of the unborn - having gone from "safe, legal and rare" to no limitation whatsoever. So, yes, with the liberals, abortion seems to be their latest fetish.
                              What I find noticeable is the difference in rhetoric from the past.

                              I've recommended John Hart Ely's "The Wages of Crying Wolf" article before, because it's such a great explanation as to why Roe v. Wade "is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be", especially strong when you consider he was pro-choice. But look at his attitude towards the pro-choice position:

                              "Were I a legislator I would vote for a statute very much like the one the Court ends up drafting. I hope this reaction reflects more than the psychological phenomenon that keeps bombardiers sane-the fact that it is somehow easier to "terminate" those you cannot see- and am inclined to think it does: that the mother, unlike the unborn child, has begun to imagine a future for herself strikes me as morally quite significant. But God knows I'm not happy with that resolution. Abortion is too much like infanticide on the one hand, and too much like contraception on the other, to leave one comfortable with any answer; and the moral issue it poses is as fiendish as any philosopher's hypothetical."

                              and

                              "Some of us who fought for the right to abortion did so with a divided spirit. We have always felt that the decision to abort was a human tragedy to be accepted only because an unwanted pregnancy was even more tragic."

                              Maybe you disagree with him, but that attitude expressed in 1973 is sure a far cry from what you hear now from pro-choice people.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                Laws that ban or severely restrict a woman’s right to abortion, are using the unwanted child to punish the mother. That is one reason that such laws are deeply immoral.
                                But having the mother murder the child instead is OK?

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by seer, 04-21-2024, 01:11 PM
                                68 responses
                                406 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by seer, 04-19-2024, 02:09 PM
                                10 responses
                                149 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seer
                                by seer
                                 
                                Started by seanD, 04-19-2024, 01:25 PM
                                2 responses
                                57 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post seanD
                                by seanD
                                 
                                Started by VonTastrophe, 04-19-2024, 08:53 AM
                                21 responses
                                179 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post NorrinRadd  
                                Started by seer, 04-18-2024, 01:12 PM
                                37 responses
                                268 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sam
                                by Sam
                                 
                                Working...
                                X