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Alabama Abortion Ban:

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    so now the baby is attacking the mother and trying to kill her? What are you smoking?
    No - the rapist attacked the mother and as part of that attack got her pregnant.

    So then why are you against a mother having an abortion who has had consensual sex but who can't handle the idea of carrying a baby to term? Why don't you think God knows what she can handle? What's the difference?
    I already explained it quite clearly, but you were not willing to hear the explanation. It is rather obvious, but if you didn't understand what I said, go back and read it again, and feel free to ask questions or offer counterpoint to what was already said on the matter if you feel my explanation was not valid or incomplete.

    Your reasoning here allows abortion for any case as long as the mother can't emotionally handle the idea of becoming a mother. Your arguments continue to sound more and more like any other pro-choice proponent. congratulations.
    Not outside the trauma of rape. And no, they do not sound like those of the pro-choice side of the debate except to those unwilling to comprehend or acknowledge the difference between rape and consensual sex, the difference between a VICTIM and a WILLING PARTICIPANT. These issues only apply because of the trauma, force, the lack of consent, and the associated psychological and physical distress of the victim associated with creating the pregnancy


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-17-2019, 08:23 AM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      The child didn't do anything wrong. It is just a pawn in the hands of the rapist. And neither did she. She is just a victim of his negligence, violence, and hatred.

      And it isn't murder - in the case where the abortion is justified, it is 1 life or 2. But only she can know which it is - so she must be the one to decide.

      And it is ALL on him.


      Jim
      Again, your same argument can be used for any pregnant woman who feels distressed at being pregnant. You are now just spouting pro-choice arguments.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Again, your same argument can be used for any pregnant woman who feels distressed at being pregnant. You are now just spouting pro-choice arguments.
        No - they can't. My arguments have as a prerequisite that the women was subjected to the trauma and violence of rape and that the pregnancy was the direct result of that non-consensual, violent act. Her distress derives not from regret, not from remorse, but from the VIOLENT TRAUMA that she experienced. Her distress alone is not sufficient, and I have not argued even once that it was. Her distress is in no way HER FAULT. Her situation was FORCED upon her.

        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-17-2019, 08:32 AM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          No - they can't. My arguments have as a prerequisite that the women was subjected to the trauma and violence of rape and that the pregnancy was the direct result of that non-consensual, violent act. Her distress derives not from regret, not from remorse, but from the VIOLENT TRAUMA that she experienced. Her distress alone is not sufficient, and I have not argued even once that it was. Her distress is in no way HER FAULT. Her situation was FORCED upon her.

          Jim
          The initial cause is different but the actual "suffering" is the same. A woman can't stand the thought of carrying the baby to term, and even threatens to kill herself if she isn't allowed to have an abortion. Same problem no matter who's "fault" it is.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            You ever endure a pregnancy and a birth?

            You act like she can be bop down to a vending machine, throw in 3 quarters and out pops a baby.
            YOU ever endure pregnancy and a birth?

            You do know you sound like a complete idiot here, Jim.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              The initial cause is different but the actual "suffering" is the same. A woman can't stand the thought of carrying the baby to term, and even threatens to kill herself if she isn't allowed to have an abortion. Same problem no matter who's "fault" it is.
              Jim still hasn't come to grips with the fact that his entire argument here is a fallacious appeal to emotion. A woman who got pregnant as a result of consensual sex doesn't hit him the same emotionally as it does with a rape victim, so he applies a different standard.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Jim still hasn't come to grips with the fact that his entire argument here is a fallacious appeal to emotion. A woman who got pregnant as a result of consensual sex doesn't hit him the same emotionally as it does with a rape victim, so he applies a different standard.
                And in neither case is the child culpable. It is an innocent victim. So instead of one victim in the case of rape you end up with two. How is that better in any way? How does killing an innocent third party make it right?

                I feel bad for the rape victim too, but that is no excuse to kill an innocent baby. The solution is to educate the woman that the baby is not at fault and give her counseling, not an abortion.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                  YOU ever endure pregnancy and a birth?

                  You do know you sound like a complete idiot here, Jim.
                  I wasn't claiming to have been pregnant in asking the question mossross.

                  But We've had 4 kids and I know from observation what my wife endured with each one. So I know enough to know that acting like 9 months of pregnancy is a walk in the park and should not present any serious problems as a prospect to a women that was just raped and finds herself pregnant is just plain stupid.

                  And that is the context of my reply.

                  Jim
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Edited by a Moderator

                    Moderated By: DesertBerean

                    Rules do not allow for accusation of lying without substantiation. That doesn't look like much substantiation.

                    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                    Last edited by DesertBerean; 05-18-2019, 01:14 PM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      And in neither case is the child culpable. It is an innocent victim. So instead of one victim in the case of rape you end up with two. How is that better in any way? How does killing an innocent third party make it right?
                      You still don't comprehend that the choice is between two deaths, the mother and the child, and the child. In the case I raised, the trauma and aftermath of the rape coupled with the stress of carrying the baby to term would result in death to both. The rape and the resulting pregnancy is then a threat to the life of the mother and the abortion is justified.

                      I feel bad for the rape victim too, but that is no excuse to kill an innocent baby. The solution is to educate the woman that the baby is not at fault and give her counseling, not an abortion.
                      That just isn't always possible Sparko. That is why the exception for rape needs to exist. A person with PTSD and deep depression doesn't just 'get over it'. And they may not even be fully capable of rational behavior or action.

                      Again and again, you want to make this the fault of the VICTIM. IT IS NOT HER FAULT. It is the fault of the rapist.

                      It is ALL on him.

                      Jim
                      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-17-2019, 09:52 AM.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Edited by a Moderator
                        You seem very angry about this particular topic which leads me believe there's more to this than you have shared (and that's fine; it's none of our business). I've had my say and will let the matter rest.

                        Note: I'm not retiring from the thread; I'm just finished with this line of conversation.
                        Last edited by DesertBerean; 05-18-2019, 01:15 PM.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          You still don't comprehend that the choice is between two deaths, the mother and the child, and the child. In the case I raised, the trauma and aftermath of the rape coupled with the stress of carrying the baby to term would result in death to both. The rape and the resulting pregnancy is then a threat to the life of the mother and the abortion is justified.
                          and again, I repeat, the same situation can come from a woman who got pregnant from consensual sex. The solution is to counsel them, get them therapy, help them realize that the child is innocent in all this and deserves to live. Not to just say, "well OK I guess we can let you kill your baby if you are threatening suicide"



                          Said with all the understanding of the ignorant. That isn't always possible Sparko. That is why the exception for rape needs to exist. A person with PTSD and deep depression doesn't just 'get over it'. And they are not fully capable of rational behavior or action.
                          and again the same situation could be claimed by any pregnant woman. You are just repeating prochoice arguments for abortion.

                          Again and again, you want to make this the fault of the VICTIM. IT IS NOT HER FAULT. It is the fault of the rapist.
                          once she kills her baby, she becomes the perpetrator of a moral crime and the baby becomes her victim. How can you not see that?

                          It is ALL on him.

                          Jim
                          No if she kills her child it is on her.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            I wasn't claiming to have been pregnant in asking the question mossross.

                            But We've had 4 kids and I know from observation what my wife endured with each one. So I know enough to know that acting like 9 months of pregnancy is a walk in the park and should not present any serious problems as a prospect to a women that was just raped and finds herself pregnant is just plain stupid.

                            And that is the context of my reply.

                            Jim
                            Jim, I am sharing this here because of the discussion and I have never told anyone this before.

                            I have an aunt who was raped in the '60's. My grandfather forced her to go to California from Alberta, accompanied by my 2 oldest sisters who are close to my aunt in age, to get an abortion.

                            She regrets, to this day, and she's in her late 70's that she had that abortion. It has haunted her all this time, and regardless of the rape, she knows, not from any outside influence, but from her own conscience, that it was the wrong thing to do.

                            She has said that she should have given the child away instead of having the abortion. She says it was never the fault of the child and what she did was wrong.

                            Now, granted, some women may not have the same feelings as my aunt, but to talk as you do, that every woman who is raped will be better off without carrying the child is purely a lie.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              And yet again you try to color the content of your responses to match the appearance of your avatar. You really need to stop doing that ...


                              Jim
                              It's no different Jim. You want the woman to be able to kill the rapist's child. Period. Stop dodging the implications of your arguments.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • Pro-lifers:
                                Maybe killing an innocent third-party for the crimes of another person isn't such a moral thing to do?


                                Oxmixmudd:
                                Omg, why do you hate rape victims?!?!?!

                                Comment

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