Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Alabama Abortion Ban:

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
    Actually, the numbers were different. They have charts with numbers from most of the rest of the US combined.
    Yes, but from a much smaller sample size.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      The fact that he has conspicuously failed to address certain objections to his arguments suggests to me that he has his suspicions.
      What do you have in mind, MM?

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Yep. A bit like Pascal's wager, but with someone else's life.
        Not really. The way to change my view on this would be to offer a clear rebuttal of the passage in Exodus concerning the way the accidental death of a fetus is dealt with. To date, most of what I've heard there is to effectively dismiss the elements that lead me to my conclusion. The problem there is that when I first read it, My opinion on abortion was your opinion. I read it in the NASV, and it seemed clear as day there was a difference. That God did not require life for a life if the fetus was not fully formed. Other translations as well. Only the more modern translations try to 'clarify it' in a way that is more in line with the more modern sense that it is from conception. Adding to that the way the Septuagint is translated makes it quite clear that to the Hellenistic Jew at least the original Hebrew was even clearer. And that my perception of what the text is saying is justified. There are also quotes from Josephus and Augustine that indicate this was also the view then (Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control). So the problem here is that my view was changed from the more restrictive form you hold to its current form as a result of reading scripture and study, and so I don't think I'm making a wager of any sort. The first brain activity in the fetus occurs long before any ANE observer would have considered the baby fully formed.

        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019, 02:28 PM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          (Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control).
          I can't see how it is anything but special pleading to then turn around and claim that this same distinction makes it morally acceptable for a rape victim to abort the child she might be carrying. If it's not murder for the rape victim then logically it is not murder for the woman who had consensual sex. There is no rational way around this for you. You imply that moral obligation can not be imposed on someone without their consent, but you have given us no reason to accept this assertion as true.

          I also suggest reading the posts Adrift linked to earlier which address the historical and theological arguments you're using to prop up defend your position:

          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...257#post489257
          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post506802
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            Not really. The way to change my view on this would be to offer a clear rebuttal of the passage in Exodus concerning the way the accidental death of a fetus is dealt with. To date, most of what I've heard there is to effectively dismiss the elements that lead me to my conclusion. The problem there is that when I first read it, My opinion on abortion was your opinion. I read it in the NASV, and it seemed clear as day there was a difference. That God did not require life for a life if the fetus was not fully formed. Other translations as well. Only the more modern translations try to 'clarify it' in a way that is more in line with the more modern sense that it is from conception. Adding to that the way the Septuagint is translated makes it quite clear that to the Hellenistic Jew at least the original Hebrew was even clearer. And that my perception of what the text is saying is justified. There are also quotes from Josephus and Augustine that indicate this was also the view then (Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control). So the problem here is that my view was changed from the more restrictive form you hold to its current form as a result of reading scripture and study, and so I don't think I'm making a wager of any sort. The first brain activity in the fetus occurs long before any ANE observer would have considered the baby fully formed.

            Jim
            Jim, did you have a chance to read the links I offered in my previous posts on this subject when I first entered this thread? I cited a couple of scholars including Paul Copan and Michael Gorman who help contextualize the passage in question. Gorman, in particular, has some expertise in this field. Also, the Septuagint doesn't help your case. It makes clear that the fetus is the one harmed (see Old Testament scholar Victor Hamilton's Exegetical Commentary on Exodus on this point). As a rule, it's usually not good exegesis to sort out complicated passages like this by the "plain reading" of various passages into English. It's always best to check a good commentary from a reliable scholar or peer reviewed work on the subject to come to a better understanding of the subject. Also, I question the value of looking over Augustine's shoulder on this sort of topic. He wasn't Jewish, wasn't (as far as I'm aware) intimately familiar with the culture, and was born nearly a thousand years after Exodus was written (at the earliest). Arguably, modern scholars have better text critical tools, and a better understanding of the culture to better exegete hard Hebrew passages.

            Comment


            • I thought I was going to be posting more in this thread, but Adrift is saying everything I want to say before I can say it myself.
              Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                I thought I was going to be posting more in this thread, but Adrift is saying everything I want to say before I can say it myself.
                Adrift is like Rush, once he says it there is nothing left to be said...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Adrift is like Rush...
                  I wonder if Adrift will see that comparison as a compliment.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I wonder if Adrift will see that comparison as a compliment.
                    It's the thought that counts...
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                      It's the thought that counts...
                      EGGzackly!
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Are we talking about Rush the band or Rush Limbaugh? I'm not a big fan of either, but I'll accept the compliment...I think.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Are we talking about Rush the band or Rush Limbaugh? I'm not a big fan of either, but I'll accept the compliment...I think.
                          Rush L...
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Jim, did you have a chance to read the links I offered in my previous posts on this subject when I first entered this thread? I cited a couple of scholars including Paul Copan and Michael Gorman who help contextualize the passage in question. Gorman, in particular, has some expertise in this field. Also, the Septuagint doesn't help your case. It makes clear that the fetus is the one harmed (see Old Testament scholar Victor Hamilton's Exegetical Commentary on Exodus on this point).
                            I did read through them. I've not yet had time to fully follow up on them.

                            As a rule, it's usually not good exegesis to sort out complicated passages like this by the "plain reading" of various passages into English. It's always best to check a good commentary from a reliable scholar or peer reviewed work on the subject to come to a better understanding of the subject. Also, I question the value of looking over Augustine's shoulder on this sort of topic. He wasn't Jewish, wasn't (as far as I'm aware) intimately familiar with the culture, and was born nearly a thousand years after Exodus was written (at the earliest). Arguably, modern scholars have better text critical tools, and a better understanding of the culture to better exegete hard Hebrew passages.
                            Maybe. But not if they are biased in such a way as to ignore the evidence that shows there is a problem with their conclusions.

                            The problem is that most modern scholars tend to dismiss the Septuagint's translation of that passage as a mistake, I believe in part because of the church's historical teaching that abortion is wrong. It is hard to accept that is the correct rendering if one is expecting to see the text support the idea that the fetus at all phases is a human person, and it is much easier to argue against abortion if the text does not mean what the Hellenistic Jews translated it to mean (Yet many of the early church fathers did just that). But more importantly why, given the degree to which Jewish Priests and scribes revere and cherish the Torah, could such an egregious mistake (as it is viewed today) EVER become fixed into something as widely used as the Septuagint (keeping in mind THAT is the text we often find quoted in the NT)? One answer is it simply was not a mistake.

                            As I see it, the awkwardness of the existing text, the fact it retains a sense that the death of the fetus is not treated as murder, the Septuagint's seemingly 'wrong' translation relative to the text as we know it today, and the general acceptance of that 'mistake' both by Jewish rabbis and Christian patriarchs from the time point to the Hebrew text of the passage as we know it today being the textual entity that is in error.

                            The evidence supporting that conclusion is presented in detail here. I have given the link before, but you may not have seen it.


                            Jim
                            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019, 05:29 PM.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              I did read through them. I've not yet had time to fully follow up on them.



                              Maybe. But not if they are biased in such a way as to ignore the evidence that shows there is a problem with their conclusions.

                              The problem is that most modern scholars tend to dismiss the Septuagint's translation of that passage as a mistake, I believe in part because of the church's historical teaching that abortion is wrong. It is hard to accept that is the correct rendering if one is expecting to see the text support the idea that the fetus at all phases is a human person, and it is much easier to argue against abortion if the text does not mean what the Hellenistic Jews translated it to mean (Yet many of the early church fathers did just that). But more importantly why, given the degree to which Jewish Priests and scribes revere and cherish the Torah, could such an egregious mistake (as it is viewed today) EVER become fixed into something as widely used as the Septuagint (keeping in mind THAT is the text we often find quoted in the NT)? One answer is it simply was not a mistake.

                              As I see it, the awkwardness of the existing text, the fact it retains a sense that the death of the fetus is not treated as murder, the Septuagint's seemingly 'wrong' translation relative to the text as we know it today, and the general acceptance of that 'mistake' both by Jewish rabbis and Christian patriarchs from the time point to the Hebrew text of the passage as we know it today being the textual entity that is in error.

                              The evidence supporting that conclusion is presented in detail here. I have given the link before, but you may not have seen it.


                              Jim
                              You don't seem to realize that if you're correct, then you have no valid reason for objecting to abortion for any reason prior to the nebulous point of "personhood".
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Rush L...
                                The appropriate tweb response ought to have been "yes"

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                116 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                318 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                111 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                196 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                360 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X