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Alabama Abortion Ban:

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  • #46
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Yes - adoption is likely the best option for many in this situation.

    Please do not lose sight of the fact we are talking about when abortion might be allowed, not when it is mandated, or even when it is recommended.

    Jim
    Well according to the bill, abortion is not allowed except in the case of the pregnancy medically endangering the life of the mother (ectopic pregnancy for example)

    I don't think that the baby of rape or incest is somehow tainted. It is still a human being. It can't help who its parents are, any more than you or I. Should the child have to pay for the sins of the father?

    https://tinseltownmom.com/10-celebri...d-out-of-rape/

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Wow.
      And I can say the same thing to you in your utter disregard for what has happened to this women and the financial, psychological, medical and physical burden you would foist upon her without batting an eye. Responsibilities and burdens that were violently placed in her path. And you would condemn her for trying to minimize the consequences?

      Who is going to pay her medical bills?

      Who is going to pay for her counselling?

      Who is going to stand by her side as she cries night after night trying to make sense of it all?

      Who is going to provide the resources she need to take 9 months out of her life if she makes the choice to adopt? Do you suppose she can ever return to what her life was?

      If she bonds with him or her and just can't adopt, who is going to pay to raise this child, send him to school, help him or her deal with the fact their father raped their mother?

      Who is going to protect her and the child when this 'father' cynically tries to get 'parental rights'?

      You would put all this on HER - the victim!



      She is the victim.




      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Well according to the bill, abortion is not allowed except in the case of the pregnancy medically endangering the life of the mother (ectopic pregnancy for example)

        I don't think that the baby of rape or incest is somehow tainted. It is still a human being. It can't help who its parents are, any more than you or I. Should the child have to pay for the sins of the father?

        https://tinseltownmom.com/10-celebri...d-out-of-rape/
        Right.

        I wonder why on this board there is no capacity to understand or empathise with what has happened to this women and what is being demanding of her?

        This man threatened her life, took her privacy, poured fear into her, impregnated her against her will. And now you would allow this scum at the hands of the state to take at minimum another year of life from her, charge her at least 7 to $10,000 in medical bills to have this baby, very possibly steal her career, her life from her - and that is just if she adopts. And what if she is married and already has a family? Now you demand they all take this on as well? Don't get me wrong, there are many that are up to it and would CHOOSE to do so.

        But you can't demand she allow this rapist take everything from her. In our day, she has options. And as a result, she needs to be able to choose what happens next.

        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 11:33 AM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Right.

          I wonder why on this board there is no capacity to understand or empathise with what has happened to this women and what you are demanding of her?


          Jim
          Because her suffering emotionally for a few months doesn't compare to murdering an innocent life. She can seek counseling, financial aid, etc. Most crisis pregnancy centers provide both. And will help with adoption if she so chooses. She doesn't have to face it alone.


          What about the mother who gets pregnant through consensual sex and then regrets it or can't afford the doctors or feels emotionally stressed by her pregnancy? Should she be able to terminate that child?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            The problem with your argument is that it is 100% an appeal to emotion.
            No - it's a 100% appeal to compassion for a victim of a violent crime. It's an appeal to mercy for the victim of a violent crime - to not demand she sacrifice her entire life at the feet of this rapist.

            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Because her suffering emotionally for a few months doesn't compare to murdering an innocent life. She can seek counseling, financial aid, etc. Most crisis pregnancy centers provide both. And will help with adoption if she so chooses. She doesn't have to face it alone.


              What about the mother who gets pregnant through consensual sex and then regrets it or can't afford the doctors or feels emotionally stressed by her pregnancy? Should she be able to terminate that child?
              Your capacity for compassion is underwhelming. You can't have compassion for both the baby and the women here. They are both innocents. And she is a victim, traumatized, facing the prospect her life is taken from her now because of what is beginning to form in her at the hand of that rapist. And she has the right to decide that she will not accept that or allow that to continue. She has the right to say just how much more she will allow that rapist to take from her.


              And though it should not need to be said, there is no comparison to be made between the consequences and responsibilities associated with consensual sex and the consequences of a rape.


              Jim
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 11:53 AM.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                And I can say the same thing to you in your utter disregard for what has happened to this women and the financial, psychological, medical and physical burden you would foist upon her without batting an eye. Responsibilities and burdens that were violently placed in her path. And you would condemn her for trying to minimize the consequences?

                Who is going to pay her medical bills?

                Who is going to pay for her counselling?

                Who is going to stand by her side as she cries night after night trying to make sense of it all?

                Who is going to provide the resources she need to take 9 months out of her life if she makes the choice to adopt? Do you suppose she can ever return to what her life was?

                If she bonds with him or her and just can't adopt, who is going to pay to raise this child, send him to school, help him or her deal with the fact their father raped their mother?

                Who is going to protect her and the child when this 'father' cynically tries to get 'parental rights'?

                You would put all this on HER - the victim!



                She is the victim.




                Jim
                Life's not fair, Jim. That doesn't make killing someone okay because he/she's an inconvenience. I find it telling that you - a scientist - have to reach for "doesn't look like a person yet, so not a person" to excuse doing so. Without arguing from emotion, you've got nothing. Nothing.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Though it should not need to be said, there is no comparison to be made between the consequences and responsibilities associated with consensual sex and the consequences of a rape.

                  Jim
                  The result is the same. The woman feels distressed at her pregnancy, and might be financially burdened, and doesn't want the child. Why do you have compassion for the state of the rape victim but not of the consenually pregnant one? They are going through the same thing emotionally and financially. In both cases the child is innocent. If you didn't know the origin of the pregnancy you would not know the difference in the women or their state of being.

                  So if you are claiming to feel empathy for the rape victim's state of affairs but not the consensual pregnancy, then you are not actually feeling genuine empathy at all, you are basing your entire decision on how the woman became pregnant and not on the woman's emotional or financial state.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    The result is the same. The woman feels distressed at her pregnancy, and might be financially burdened, and doesn't want the child. Why do you have compassion for the state of the rape victim but not of the consenually pregnant one? They are going through the same thing emotionally and financially. In both cases the child is innocent. If you didn't know the origin of the pregnancy you would not know the difference in the women or their state of being.

                    So if you are claiming to feel empathy for the rape victim's state of affairs but not the consensual pregnancy, then you are not actually feeling genuine empathy at all, you are basing your entire decision on how the woman became pregnant and not on the woman's emotional or financial state.
                    Nope. This was a situation violently imposed on the women. She is a victim, as is the child forming in her.

                    With consensual sex between adults, there is no crime, there is no victim, therefore there is no reason to consider abortion as a potential option to reduce the extent and consequences of said crime to said victim.


                    Jim
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 11:57 AM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Nope. This was a situation violently imposed on the women. She is a victim, as is the child forming in her.

                      With consensual sex between adults, there is no crime, there is no victim, therefore there is no reason to consider abortion as a potential option to reduce the extent and consequences of said crime to said victim.


                      Jim
                      So the actual emotional state of the woman and any financial burden is not really the reason you think she should be allowed to have an abortion, but because she is the victim of a crime. That pretty much wipes away your earlier emotional argument about how hard it would be on the woman. Because you don't care about the hardship on the woman who had consensual sex, you believe she can deal with the stress and should do so.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        No - it's a 100% appeal to compassion for a victim of a violent crime. It's an appeal to mercy for the victim of a violent crime - to not demand she sacrifice her entire life at the feet of this rapist.

                        Jim
                        And where's your compassion for the innocent human life that was brought into the world through no fault of its own? This is exactly the sort of logical inconsistency that emotional appeals lead to.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          And where's your compassion for the innocent human life that was brought into the world through no fault of its own? This is exactly the sort of logical inconsistency that emotional appeals lead to.
                          You are sacrificing real compassion for a living, breathing, human being that is the victim of a horrible crime for abstract, fantasy compassion for a potential human being that as yet can neither see, breath, hear, think, eat, or even perceive in any way any element of what is happening around it.

                          You are ignoring what has happened to the women and foisting the responsibility for this potential child upon her. It is not her responsibility, it is the rapists. But one certainly can't expect him accept that - now can we?

                          And again I will make the point you just can't seem to hold in your brain long enough to let it effect the content of your posts -

                          I am not recommending abortion, I am saying it is wrong to take from her, the victim of the rape, that option.



                          Jim
                          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 01:00 PM.
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Denying someone is a human -- taking away their very personhood -- just to rationalize killing them is the ultimate expression of callousness and lacking compassion.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              So the actual emotional state of the woman and any financial burden is not really the reason you think she should be allowed to have an abortion, but because she is the victim of a crime. That pretty much wipes away your earlier emotional argument about how hard it would be on the woman. Because you don't care about the hardship on the woman who had consensual sex, you believe she can deal with the stress and should do so.
                              Nope.

                              The women who has consensual sex is consenting to the potential hardship that is the consequence of her choice.

                              The raped women is not.

                              Consider:

                              I can choose to climb Mount Everest and if I die, that is my choice.

                              If I force someone to climb Mount Everest and they die, I am a murderer.


                              You can't take the moral responsibility to own the consequences of ones own choices and say that means someone forced to do the same thing also has to own the consequences. I am not responsible for the consequences of something you force me to do. You are.


                              Therefore, allowing rape as an exception clause for a ban on abortions does not in any way apply the reasons that exception clause might exist to any manner of consensual sex that produces a pregnancy. The raped women is victim and is not responsible to accept the consequences of the rapists actions. The women that had consensual sex is not a victim and through her own choice is pregnant and thus must accept the consequences of her own actions.


                              Jim
                              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019, 12:51 PM.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Denying someone is a human -- taking away their very personhood -- just to rationalize killing them is the ultimate expression of callousness and lacking compassion.
                                To deny someone is human, there must be a 'someone' that is or has been there in the first place.

                                And then there is the issue that two innocent lives are here endangered by a criminal act, and in some cases one must then be chosen over the other.

                                So that simply isn't what is happening in the case of an abortion that is done to prevent a rape pregnancy from going full term.

                                Jim
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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