Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Alabama Abortion Ban:
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Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat is a terrible analogy.
We are talking about suicidal women, not mountain climbers.
Consensual sex: personal choice. Rape: violently forced.
The analogy is not the argument. This is the argument:
Originally posted by oxmixmuddTherefore, allowing rape as an exception clause for a ban on abortions does not in any way apply the reasons that exception clause might exist to any manner of consensual sex that produces a pregnancy. The raped women is victim and is not responsible to accept the consequences of the rapists actions. The women that had consensual sex is not a victim and through her own choice is pregnant and thus must accept the consequences of her own actions.
In both cases you have a woman who is threatening to kill herself if she can't have an abortion. In both cases if she does, both her and the baby die.
First, they are fundamentally different situations. But more importantly, what I am talking about is the change in responsibility for an act and its consequences when the act is chosen vs when it is forced.
Consensual sex is a choice and all participants bear responsibility for the consequences. Rape is forced on the women. The consequences are the responsibility of the rapist, not the victim.
Yet in the case of consensual sex, you are willing to let her commit suicide rather than let her have an abortion, but in the case of rape, you are willing to let her have the abortion instead of killing herself and the baby.
IF you didn't know the circumstances of the pregnancy you would not know which woman was which. So it isn't about the woman threatening suicide or the risk that both could die. It is all about HOW she got pregnant.
Where's YOUR empathy?
In the case of rape, forcing the women to carry the baby to term puts responsibility for the consequences of the rapists action on the women who is the victim.
That reason for an exception (rape) can't be extended to become an exception associated with consensual sex because if a similar circumstance, because circumstance is not the primary reason for the exception.
However, the existing exception based on a threat to the life of the mother could conceivably be invoked if the woman is truly suicidal. But that would be a very hard thing to adjudicate.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
No - in that post I never even mention a specific case where a women having consensual sex threatens suicide and a women raped and pregnant is driven by the trauma to suicidal ideation.
First, they are fundamentally different situations.
But more importantly, what I am talking about is the change in responsibility for an act and its consequences when the act is chosen vs when it is forced.
Consensual sex is a choice and all participants bear responsibility for the consequences. Rape is forced on the women. The consequences are the responsibility of the rapist, not the victim.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIt had the opposite effect for the women I quoted above. Rape is an extremely traumatic experience. And finding out one is pregnant is an extremely traumatic experience. That force state of being pregnant is going to upend this persons life forever, whether she adopts or keeps the baby. So it is not a given that stopping the pregnancy is the worst possible option - which is how you are treating it. Sometimes it is not. It's all bad. But what is the best option for a given person is NOT something you or I can decide.
Again, this is not about abortion on demand. This is a special case where the women is in a very fragile and difficult place and the state (Alabama) wants to force a specific outcome when it is demonstrably false that outcome is always the best outcome. Further, there - again - is the very real possibility that the Trauma of the rape and discovering one is pregnant will threaten the life of the mother. In that case, abortion is justified just as it is in ANY case where the life of the mother is threatened. Removing the exception for Rape denies the very real possibility the rape and the pregnancy can represent a threat to the life of the mother outside the purely physical effect. And that diminishes and denies empathy for the women that finds herself in that state of being after the rape.
JimEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostUmmmm.... lemme check. I'll get back to you on that.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostHey, you guys got a movie out of the deal!
And I just remembered --- we also got accused of dishonesty because we had a third party purchase the property for us. The folks representing Planned Parenthood said they never would have sold it to us if they had known who was behind it?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo, that was MY example that you said your "everest" analogy answered. It didn't.
No they are not. Without knowing how they became pregnant you would consider them exactly the same.
Which is why I said you were only concerned with HOW they got pregnant and not with the actual hardship they were going through. Both claim they will kill themselves if they can't get an abortion. Both feel trapped. Both don't want the baby. Both would rather die than have the baby. But you don't give a crap about the one who had consensual sex. So you actually have no empathy here. This entire emotional argument is moot because you only care about HOW they got pregnant.
And yet both women are suffering the same consequences and hardships. Yet what would your solution be for the one who threatens suicide who was pregnant because of consensual sex? Would you let her kill herself? Would you force treatment upon her to keep her from killing herself? Or would you allow her to have an abortion? Please answer this.
The problem here is that you've picked an example that is covered under two different exceptions clauses. For a person that is suicidal, they could theoretically fall under the 'threat to the life of the mother' exception.
But lets change it up just a bit. Suppose the issue is just the simple fact that her entire life is now put on hold for a year at least and that she has to go through the pregnancy and the financial hardship and the medical issues and the impact on any family or significant other and schooling and so on.
Consensual sex: No - sorry that was your choice.
Rape: OK, you do NOT have to accept that burden. You did not chose this.
JimLast edited by oxmixmudd; 05-17-2019, 04:28 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSuppose the issue is just the simple fact that her entire life is now put on hold for a year at least and that she has to go through the pregnancy and the financial hardship and the medical issues and the impact on any family or significant other and schooling and so on.Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - it's a 100% appeal to compassion for a victim of a violent crime. It's an appeal to mercy for the victim of a violent crime - to not demand she sacrifice her entire life at the feet of this rapist.
Jim
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Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostMaternity leave is only about six weeks.
"Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
"I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
Katniss Everdeen
Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post(I know you don't accept this, but it is what it is) the OT law - in the original text - apparently makes the distinction between the unformed child and the formed child when determining the punishment for a man who through his actions kills the unborn.
I SO empathize with your point of view in this thread. Rape destroys so many lives, and it continues to destroy lives well beyond the initial physical act. I know it's only anecdotal, but in my own life I've been close to a number of women who have been raped, and/also have aborted their children. My own mother had an abortion because the cult I was raised in sanctioned abortion regardless of the cause. These women felt like they had nowhere else to go, and/or were disgusted with their condition, and/or felt they had no other choice without destroying their lives. My mother who was raped while under the influence, and aborted her child, coming to a fuller knowledge of God's will, has ministered to women in the same circumstances for decades. I grew up in a household where my parents took in so many poor women who felt they had no other choice, who felt that suicide was the only option, who ministered into their lives, and showered them with the love of Christ. Once they knew that the child within them wasn't part of the evil they endured, it changed them. I saw so many lives changed. They saw their children as a curse turned into a blessing. That's for real. That's not some hypothetical, I saw it with my own eyes. Again, I totally empathize with those who've been through that sort of trauma, but abortion isn't the answer. The Christians on this form are correct in pointing out that all it does is lead to more grief.
I love your heart man. I really do, but I think in this particular case it's misplaced.Last edited by Adrift; 05-17-2019, 09:54 PM.
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I do question the wisdom of lacking a rape exception. Earlier conservatives were, as far as I can tell, scoring legitimate points in public perception by pointing out the absurdities of the abortion laws in states like New York, but now they've granted ammunition to the liberals. And for what, exactly?
"It could save more lives" you might say, but let's be real here. This law is not going to go into effect anytime soon. It'll be challenged instantly and put on hold by a judge because it's a flagrant violation of precedent (that precedent may or may not be wrong, but it's currently binding). The only way this law is going to go into effect is if it somehow manages to make its way to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court finds it constitutional. That requires a whole lot of things to line up perfectly, would take a long time even if it did happen, and if it did, the state could just decide "okay, now that it's in effect, let's amend it to take out that rape exception."
It may seem a minor thing, but it feels like it's a loss in PR without actually gaining anything from it.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostI do question the wisdom of lacking a rape exception. Earlier conservatives were, as far as I can tell, scoring legitimate points in public perception by pointing out the absurdities of the abortion laws in states like New York, but now they've granted ammunition to the liberals. And for what, exactly?
...It may seem a minor thing, but it feels like it's a loss in PR without actually gaining anything from it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut you gain a consistent argument, if that unborn really is a human life it is deserving of Constitutional protections, no matter how that life came into being.
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Would the woman not qualify as "whoever performed the abortion" in those circumstances?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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