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Thread: Alabama Abortion Ban:

  1. #241
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaFille View Post
    Actually, the numbers were different. They have charts with numbers from most of the rest of the US combined.
    Yes, but from a much smaller sample size.
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  2. #242
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The fact that he has conspicuously failed to address certain objections to his arguments suggests to me that he has his suspicions.
    What do you have in mind, MM?

    Jim
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Yep. A bit like Pascal's wager, but with someone else's life.
    Not really. The way to change my view on this would be to offer a clear rebuttal of the passage in Exodus concerning the way the accidental death of a fetus is dealt with. To date, most of what I've heard there is to effectively dismiss the elements that lead me to my conclusion. The problem there is that when I first read it, My opinion on abortion was your opinion. I read it in the NASV, and it seemed clear as day there was a difference. That God did not require life for a life if the fetus was not fully formed. Other translations as well. Only the more modern translations try to 'clarify it' in a way that is more in line with the more modern sense that it is from conception. Adding to that the way the Septuagint is translated makes it quite clear that to the Hellenistic Jew at least the original Hebrew was even clearer. And that my perception of what the text is saying is justified. There are also quotes from Josephus and Augustine that indicate this was also the view then (Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control). So the problem here is that my view was changed from the more restrictive form you hold to its current form as a result of reading scripture and study, and so I don't think I'm making a wager of any sort. The first brain activity in the fetus occurs long before any ANE observer would have considered the baby fully formed.

    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019 at 12:28 PM.
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  4. #244
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    (Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control).
    I can't see how it is anything but special pleading to then turn around and claim that this same distinction makes it morally acceptable for a rape victim to abort the child she might be carrying. If it's not murder for the rape victim then logically it is not murder for the woman who had consensual sex. There is no rational way around this for you. You imply that moral obligation can not be imposed on someone without their consent, but you have given us no reason to accept this assertion as true.

    I also suggest reading the posts Adrift linked to earlier which address the historical and theological arguments you're using to prop up defend your position:

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...257#post489257
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post506802
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  5. Amen Adrift, Sparko, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  6. #245
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Not really. The way to change my view on this would be to offer a clear rebuttal of the passage in Exodus concerning the way the accidental death of a fetus is dealt with. To date, most of what I've heard there is to effectively dismiss the elements that lead me to my conclusion. The problem there is that when I first read it, My opinion on abortion was your opinion. I read it in the NASV, and it seemed clear as day there was a difference. That God did not require life for a life if the fetus was not fully formed. Other translations as well. Only the more modern translations try to 'clarify it' in a way that is more in line with the more modern sense that it is from conception. Adding to that the way the Septuagint is translated makes it quite clear that to the Hellenistic Jew at least the original Hebrew was even clearer. And that my perception of what the text is saying is justified. There are also quotes from Josephus and Augustine that indicate this was also the view then (Augustine accepts the distinction, but much as I do, argued that distinction did NOT justify abortion as a means of birth control). So the problem here is that my view was changed from the more restrictive form you hold to its current form as a result of reading scripture and study, and so I don't think I'm making a wager of any sort. The first brain activity in the fetus occurs long before any ANE observer would have considered the baby fully formed.

    Jim
    Jim, did you have a chance to read the links I offered in my previous posts on this subject when I first entered this thread? I cited a couple of scholars including Paul Copan and Michael Gorman who help contextualize the passage in question. Gorman, in particular, has some expertise in this field. Also, the Septuagint doesn't help your case. It makes clear that the fetus is the one harmed (see Old Testament scholar Victor Hamilton's Exegetical Commentary on Exodus on this point). As a rule, it's usually not good exegesis to sort out complicated passages like this by the "plain reading" of various passages into English. It's always best to check a good commentary from a reliable scholar or peer reviewed work on the subject to come to a better understanding of the subject. Also, I question the value of looking over Augustine's shoulder on this sort of topic. He wasn't Jewish, wasn't (as far as I'm aware) intimately familiar with the culture, and was born nearly a thousand years after Exodus was written (at the earliest). Arguably, modern scholars have better text critical tools, and a better understanding of the culture to better exegete hard Hebrew passages.

  7. Amen QuantaFille, One Bad Pig, Chrawnus, Sparko amen'd this post.
  8. #246
    Thread Killer QuantaFille's Avatar
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    I thought I was going to be posting more in this thread, but Adrift is saying everything I want to say before I can say it myself.
    Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

  9. Amen Adrift, One Bad Pig, Littlejoe, Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  10. #247
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaFille View Post
    I thought I was going to be posting more in this thread, but Adrift is saying everything I want to say before I can say it myself.
    Adrift is like Rush, once he says it there is nothing left to be said...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  11. #248
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Adrift is like Rush...
    I wonder if Adrift will see that comparison as a compliment.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  12. #249
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    I wonder if Adrift will see that comparison as a compliment.
    It's the thought that counts...
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

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  13. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  14. #250
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    It's the thought that counts...
    EGGzackly!
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

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