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Alabama Abortion Ban:

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  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    The minute you make one exception, you have lost. You have granted the opposition's proposal that the fetus is not a human individual. Therefore, you have no logical reason to deny ANY mother the right to murder their child at any stage.
    You already allow an exception. If the mothers life is in danger. I guess all is lost then.

    Very hard to predict exacltly how you guys will misrepresent or misread what I type, but I'll keep trying to avoid presenting ideas in ways less capable of becoming fodder for your disdain.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-18-2019, 05:24 PM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      I never implied or said the soul ceased to exist. I said it didnt hang around, iow, it leaves, goes to be with Christ if a Christian. This body is only the dwelling of the soul while the body is alive.

      Jim
      I never claimed that you said the soul ceased to exist. My point was since you clearly believe that the soul can exist without the body after death, you have no justification for your belief that it couldn't exist prior to the development of a nervous system/brain. Any reason you could give for why the soul could exist after the death of the body I can use as a reason as to why it could exist prior to the existence of the nervous system. So you clearly don't even believe in your own words that a nervous system/brain is necessary for personhood.

      Comment


      • 60523038_10216459766981741_3897114575471902720_n.jpg
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          I never implied or said the soul ceased to exist. I said it didnt hang around, iow, it leaves, goes to be with Christ if a Christian. This body is only the dwelling of the soul while the body is alive.

          Jim
          Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you...
            I was waiting for that one. That doesnt imply anything about when the soul comes to be. If it did, it would mean our soul pre-exists our bodies. God knows across all of time. This verse is not about our existence but rather His own.

            I think we can draw clues about this from Genesis. God forms Adam, THEN, When the bodyvwas formed He breathed into him the breath of life. The forming precedes the introduction of life and the soul. And again, tthe section on how to deal with the punishment of a man who kills an unborn child. As I see it, the indications are that the unforned body is not yet fully a living soul.

            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • And what makes you so certain that a soul isn't joined to the body at the moment of conception? You beg the question when you say it can't happen untill there exists a nervous system. Do you think God's works are limited to your understanding and imagination?
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                And what makes you so certain that a soul isn't joined to the body at the moment of conception? You beg the question when you say it can't happen untill there exists a nervous system. Do you think God's works are limited to your understanding and imagination?
                Im not certain. Who can be certain? The Bible doesnt really give much information about it at all, one way or the other. But at least from what i can see, there is nothing about what Im saying inconsistent with what scripture says, and it is consistent with what we know scientifically.

                And please keep in mind, excepting a pregnancy produced by rape and mortal danger to the mother, nothing im saying implies abortion is ok.

                Jim
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  I never claimed that you said the soul ceased to exist. My point was since you clearly believe that the soul can exist without the body after death, you have no justification for your belief that it couldn't exist prior to the development of a nervous system/brain. Any reason you could give for why the soul could exist after the death of the body I can use as a reason as to why it could exist prior to the existence of the nervous system. So you clearly don't even believe in your own words that a nervous system/brain is necessary for personhood.
                  The problem here is that all indications are our soul hes a beginning. And that beginning is coincidental to the life of our body. Somehow our soul either emerges from our physical formation or is created and joined to our physical bodies sometine during pregnancy. AFAIKT, Souls pre-existing the body is not consistent with scripture.

                  Jim
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    The problem here is that all indications are our soul hes a beginning. And that beginning is coincidental to the life of our body. Somehow our soul either emerges from our physical formation or is created and joined to our physical bodies sometine during pregnancy. AFAIKT, Souls pre-existing the body is not consistent with scripture.

                    Jim
                    Souls being dependent on the nervous system/brain is not consistent with scripture either.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Im not certain. Who can be certain? The Bible doesnt really give much information about it at all, one way or the other. But at least from what i can see, there is nothing about what Im saying inconsistent with what scripture says, and it is consistent with what we know scientifically.

                      And please keep in mind, excepting a pregnancy produced by rape and mortal danger to the mother, nothing im saying implies abortion is ok.

                      Jim
                      The problem for you is that allowing an exception for rape is inconsistent. As I said earlier:

                      Either the embryo has value from the moment of conception, or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways, and suggesting that it has value only if the sex was consensual, but not if the mother was raped, is illogical. Why should the manner of conception make any difference?
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        The problem for you is that allowing an exception for rape is inconsistent. As I said earlier:

                        Either the embryo has value from the moment of conception, or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways, and suggesting that it has value only if the sex was consensual, but not if the mother was raped, is illogical. Why should the manner of conception make any difference?
                        First to your last question:

                        Q: "Why should the manner of conception make any difference"
                        A:
                        (1) Because the fact the pregnancy is a product of rape removes the element of personal responsibility for the pregnancy from the woman.
                        (2) Because the rape introduces additional mental and physical distress beyond that possible in consensual sex, to the point of induced mental or physical illness that can be a threat to the life of the mother.


                        This whole evaluation of what the morality of he situation is is not black and white. You say "Either the embryo has value the moment of conception, or it doesn't", but that is not how that 'value' of a life is determined. It is more like there are numerical constants assigned to different situations, and when a choice is to be made between two lives, we do a moral calculation to try to make a fair choice as to which one lives and which one dies.

                        For example, we all agree that if the pregnancy is a threat to the life of the mother, then she has the right to self-defense, a right to life which supercedes that of the fetus. That inequality stands even though the newly forming child does not have any malice or conscious desire to present itself as a threat to the mother. And indeed, this calculation produces this result anytime one form of life threatens the life of a human person, it really doesn't matter if there is a difference, no matter how small, in the general value one assigns to the threat. If a human person's life is threatened, that person has a right to save their own lives. This is how the inequality comes out in almost all cases, even if the threat is also a human person.

                        And in the general case, both our moral calculators assign sufficient value to all stages of development of the new life that if it is the result of consensual sex, its right to life supersedes any regret and/or distress or change in direction of the arc of the life of the mother associated with her actions resulting in the pregnancy. So highly do we value the life of the fetus at all stages of development and so highly do we value the concept of personal responsibility for ones actions.

                        Where our inequalities differ in terms of the outcome of that moral equation is when there is a rape and whether or not there is any period during which we assign a different value to the fetus than 'human person'. I believe that both scripture and science support the idea that there is a period where the fetus has not yet attained the status of 'human person'. Therefore,it is possible that the fact (1) the rape has imposed this pregnancy upon the women against her will (no personal responsibility) and (2) the rape has subjected her to psychological and physical distress which can produce mental and physical illness can actually raise her right to proceed without the pregnancy above the right of the forming child to continue the process to completion.


                        Jim
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-19-2019, 07:00 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          Souls being dependent on the nervous system/brain is not consistent with scripture either.
                          I never said 'dependent'. I said 'emergent from' or 'created by God and implanted' with an acknowledgement I can't know which. Scripture is not precise enough to tell us which of the latter two is a better model for how a soul comes to be.


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            First to your last question:

                            Q: "Why should the manner of conception make any difference"
                            A: Because the fact the pregnancy is a product of rape removes the element of personal responsibility for the pregnancy from the woman.

                            This whole evaluation of what the morality of he situation is is not black and white. You say "Either the embryo has value the moment of conception, or it doesn't", but that is not how that 'value' of a life is determined. It is more like there are numerical constants assigned to different situations, and when a choice is to be made between two lives, we do a moral calculation to try to make a fair choice as to which one lives and which one dies.

                            For example, we all agree that if the pregnancy is a threat to the life of the mother, then she has the right to self-defense, a right to life which supercedes that of the fetus. That inequality stands even though the newly forming child does not have any malice or conscious desire to present itself as a threat to the mother. And indeed, this calculation produces this result anytime one form of life threatens the life of a human person, it really doesn't matter if there is a difference, no matter how small, in the general value one assigns to the threat. If a human person's life is threatened, that person has a right to save their own lives. This is how the inequality comes out in almost all cases, even if the threat is also a human person.

                            And in the general case, both our moral calculators assign sufficient value to the new life that if it is the result of consensual sex, its right to life supersedes any regret and/or distress or change in direction of the arc of the life of the mother associated with her actions resulting in the pregnancy. So highly do we value the life of the fetus at all stages of development and so highly do we value the concept of personal responsibility for ones actions.

                            Where our inequalities differ in terms of the outcome of that moral equation is when there is a rape and whether or not there is any period during which we assign a different value to the fetus than 'human person'. I believe that both scripture and science support the idea that there is a period where the fetus has not yet attained the status of 'human person'. Therefore, is possible that the fact rape has imposed this pregnancy upon the women against her will (no personal responsibility) and has in addiction subjected her to psychological and physical distress which can produce mental and physical illness which can actually raise her right to proceed without the pregnancy above the right of the forming child to continue to process to completion.


                            Jim
                            Are you suggesting that a moral obligation can not be imposed? That we are only morally accountable in so far as we have agreed to accept the circumstances? You're going to have to flesh that one out, because I can't see any way for that premise to hold together.

                            You also continue to ignore the case of the woman who consented to sex but didn't intend to get pregnant -- or maybe she did -- and is now so overwhelmed by her circumstances that she has thoughts of suicide. Her life is every bit as much at risk as the rape victim, yet your "moral calculation" says it would be wrong for her to abort. This presents an irreconcilable conflict for your position.

                            You claim this isn't a back and white issue. I disagree, and so do you, I think. You even concede that it's entirely possible the soul is bound to our physical being at the moment of conception** thus eliminating any window of opportunity for terminating a pregnancy without it being murder, regardless of whether the mother was raped or had consensual sex, and trying to put abortion under the umbrella of "self-defense" is a self-evidently absurd rationalization because the baby is not actually doing anything to threaten the mother's life. It's entirely within her own head, and love, support, and counseling is the answer, not abortion.


                            **When making any moral evaluation that has unkown factors (such as the precise moment an eternal soul is bound to our physical being), yet those factors make the difference between an action being good, and an action being evil, we ought always to err on the side of good.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Jim,

                              With a rape exception and the mother's life in danger being the only 2 exceptions...how many more false accusations of rape are going to take place? I mean, they take place now for various reasons, very few of them because of rape. A woman who gets pregnant accidentally, may very well come to the conclusion that her only option is to claim rape in order to get a legal abortion. ISTM that the rape accusations could very well go up substantially...all for a nebulous idea that early fetal development isn't killing a human person. We all agree it's killing a human being. As a Christian, I'm surprised you don't come down more on the side of caution.
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                I was waiting for that one. That doesnt imply anything about when the soul comes to be. If it did, it would mean our soul pre-exists our bodies. God knows across all of time. This verse is not about our existence but rather His own.

                                I think we can draw clues about this from Genesis. God forms Adam, THEN, When the bodyvwas formed He breathed into him the breath of life. The forming precedes the introduction of life and the soul. And again, tthe section on how to deal with the punishment of a man who kills an unborn child. As I see it, the indications are that the unforned body is not yet fully a living soul.

                                Jim
                                But, Jim, no one else has ever been created the same way Adam was. You can't use him as the baseline for when you think the soul enters a body. If you push that too far, then we can say that no one receives a soul until they are an adult, since Adam was formed as an adult male.


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                                Comment

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