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Thread: Alabama Abortion Ban:

  1. #211
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    But, Jim, no one else has ever been created the same way Adam was. You can't use him as the baseline for when you think the soul enters a body. If you push that too far, then we can say that no one receives a soul until they are an adult, since Adam was formed as an adult male.
    Or "the breath of life" which some have used to argue that a baby is not a human being until it takes its first breath.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. Amen Cerebrum123, Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  3. #212
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Or "the breath of life" which some have used to argue that a baby is not a human being until it takes its first breath.

    Which is why we have partial birth abortions.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  4. Amen Cow Poke, Cerebrum123, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  5. #213
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    But, Jim, no one else has ever been created the same way Adam was. You can't use him as the baseline for when you think the soul enters a body. If you push that too far, then we can say that no one receives a soul until they are an adult, since Adam was formed as an adult male.
    I wasnt using that as an example of when. I was using it as an example of the process: forming the physical body, then granting it a soul, life.

    Jim
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  6. #214
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Jim,

    With a rape exception and the mother's life in danger being the only 2 exceptions...how many more false accusations of rape are going to take place? I mean, they take place now for various reasons, very few of them because of rape. A woman who gets pregnant accidentally, may very well come to the conclusion that her only option is to claim rape in order to get a legal abortion. ISTM that the rape accusations could very well go up substantially...all for a nebulous idea that early fetal development isn't killing a human person. We all agree it's killing a human being. As a Christian, I'm surprised you don't come down more on the side of caution.
    If the exception for rape is the right way to deal with a pregnacy as a consequence of rape, then the fact someone might try to abuse that law cant be an excuse not to grsnt the exception. You deal with that sort of abuse by dealing with the individual cases 1 by 1, and making sure any such false accusations are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    And you cant reduce the reason for the exception to just one element. Rape creates the circumstance where the interaction of the elements creates the need for the exception.

    Ive tried to explain that element of my position, why do so few lack the decency not to distort it when replying to my posts?

    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-19-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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  7. #215
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I never said 'dependent'. I said 'emergent from' or 'created by God and implanted' with an acknowledgement I can't know which. Scripture is not precise enough to tell us which of the latter two is a better model for how a soul comes to be.


    Jim
    Well, most of the arguments you used in favor of your position in post #187 have been used by people who deny mind-body dualism to argue that the mind is dependent on the brain for it's existence. The only difference being that you speak of "the soul inhabiting the body", instead of "the mind being dependent on the brain" and that "we do not consider that the soul hangs around once [death] occurs", instead of "When the brain dies, the mind dies with it".

    If your position is that the soul emerges from, or is created by God and implanted sometimes during the development of the nervous system/brain, then I honestly don't see how anything of what you wrote in post #187 is supposed to lend support for that position. Your first argument, about inanimate objects, begs the question in assuming that an embryo is the same kind of "inanimate human tissue" as something like a severed extremity, while your other argument, about how changes in the brain can influence personality and other traits, only shows that something which influences the brain can and will influence the mind/soul as well. Someone who believes the soul inhabits the body long before the development of the nervous system will have no problems with accepting what you say as true, and still being no more obligated than he was before to think that the embryo doesn't have a soul until the nervous system/brain is sufficiently developed.

    Nothing of what you wrote in post #187 is actually a valid argument for your position, since no one who disagrees with your position on when the soul first inhabits the body should be rationally compelled to, after reading your post, even consider your position more likely. There is nothing about the facts that you provided in post #187 that is better explained by your position than by the position of someone who thinks the soul inhabits the body before the development of the nervous system/brain.

  8. Amen Cerebrum123, MaxVel amen'd this post.
  9. #216
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    If the exception for rape is the right way to deal with a pregnacy as a consequence of rape, then the fact someone might try to abuse that law cant be an excuse not to grsnt the exception. You deal with that sort of abuse by dealing with the individual cases 1 by 1, and making sure any such false accusations are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
    That already has very mixed results. I've seen it firsthand...and desperation will make women do things they would never normally do despite possible penalties.

    And you cant reduce the reason for the exception to just one element. Rape creates the circumstance where the interaction of the elements creates the need for the exception.
    I was simply bringing up one point that I haven't seen brought up...it's not the only reason I disagree with our position...just another reason I do.

    Ive tried to explain that element of my position, why do so few lack the decency not to distort it when replying to my posts?

    Jim
    What element of your position did I distort?
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

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  10. #217
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    That already has very mixed results. I've seen it firsthand...and desperation will make women do things they would never normally do despite possible penalties.
    I don't doubt it. But the law on this can't be decided on factors like that. It has to be based on what is right and just. We may disagree on what is right and just, but the fact some people might be motivated to exploit the exception is not a legitimate factor in deciding if the exception should exist.

    I was simply bringing up one point that I haven't seen brought up...it's not the only reason I disagree with our position...just another reason I do.

    What element of your position did I distort?
    You implied that the only or primary reason for my support for the exception is my belief there is a transition point before which the fetus can't be legitimately classified a 'person'. My position is not based on any single element but the combined weight of all of them.

    Jim
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  11. #218
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    "Two wrongs do not make a right. The death of the baby will not heal the wounds of the mother."
    -Dr. Alveda King

    https://www.breitbart.com/radio/2019...-civil-rights/
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  12. #219
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Well, most of the arguments you used in favor of your position in post #187 have been used by people who deny mind-body dualism to argue that the mind is dependent on the brain for it's existence. The only difference being that you speak of "the soul inhabiting the body", instead of "the mind being dependent on the brain" and that "we do not consider that the soul hangs around once [death] occurs", instead of "When the brain dies, the mind dies with it".
    I don't get the point. Why would that matter? I'm not proposing the soul is not independent of the body, at least at death, though I don't think it makes sense to assume it preexists the body. The fact someone that doesn't believe in God would think the observed interaction between personality and the brain means there is no soul is irrelevant. There are a lot of people that think the evolution of the body implies there is no soul and even no God. That doesn't drive my own believe about God nor does it mean they are correct.

    If your position is that the soul emerges from, or is created by God and implanted sometimes during the development of the nervous system/brain, then I honestly don't see how anything of what you wrote in post #187 is supposed to lend support for that position. Your first argument, about inanimate objects, begs the question in assuming that an embryo is the same kind of "inanimate human tissue" as something like a severed extremity, while your other argument, about how changes in the brain can influence personality and other traits, only shows that something which influences the brain can and will influence the mind/soul as well. Someone who believes the soul inhabits the body long before the development of the nervous system will have no problems with accepting what you say as true, and still being no more obligated than he was before to think that the embryo doesn't have a soul until the nervous system/brain is sufficiently developed.
    I don't believe there is any means of proving much of anything about the soul. The Bible implies we have existence beyond death but very little if any information about how it comes to be. However, there is nothing that even hints at the idea that any of us exist in any form prior to our life here on earth. So I think the soul as an emergent or created phenomenon is the only possible Scriptural belief about it. And I also believe that since the procedure outlined in the creation of Adam did not involve the creation of body and soul as separate things, but rather the formation of the body and then God breathing life into that body, it is reasonable to conclude that the soul is in some manner emergent. If we then line that up with how, as I understand it, OT law in fact treats the unformed fetus differently that the formed fetus in the event men fighting kill the unborn baby, it seems reasonable to conclude that the personhood or soul of the child is not present early on in the process. Since scientifically the creation of neurons well precedes any possible ANE observation the fetus is 'formed', I think using neural activity as the first possible moment the fetus could be classified a 'person' is generous, and it has the added advantage of being a useful and objective criteria for both the beginning and the ending of personhood in a day and age when the life of the body and the life of the person can in fact be quite diifferent - especially at death (e.g. brain dead person on life support).

    Nothing of what you wrote in post #187 is actually a valid argument for your position, since no one who disagrees with your position on when the soul first inhabits the body should be rationally compelled to, after reading your post, even consider your position more likely. There is nothing about the facts that you provided in post #187 that is better explained by your position than by the position of someone who thinks the soul inhabits the body before the development of the nervous system/brain.
    It is hard to argue much of anything about the soul in a convincing manner unless one already believes in it and the authority of scripture, and even then, almost no information is given to us about it's formation. So I'm not surprised that if you are already against the concept of a rape exception based on the personal assumption the soul is placed in the zygote when it forms that you would find ANY argument for any alternate view unconvincing. Ideas that are not based on evidence or scripture can't be argued. They are axioms which can be neither proven nor disproven.

    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019 at 06:15 AM.
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  13. #220
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    The problem here is that you've picked an example that is covered under two different exceptions clauses. For a person that is suicidal, they could theoretically fall under the 'threat to the life of the mother' exception.
    So you would allow a consensual mother who threatened to kill herself to have an abortion too?


    But lets change it up just a bit. Suppose the issue is just the simple fact that her entire life is now put on hold for a year at least and that she has to go through the pregnancy and the financial hardship and the medical issues and the impact on any family or significant other and schooling and so on.

    Consensual sex: No - sorry that was your choice.

    Rape: OK, you do NOT have to accept that burden. You did not chose this.
    So now we are down to convenience?

    Again, what you are saying is that the hardship, the suffering, etc, doesn't matter. All that matters is the CAUSE of the pregnancy. The determining cause in whether a mother can get an abortion, for you, is if she is pregnant because of rape or incest she can choose to have an abortion. The rest is just a smoke screen as Mountain Man has said all along. An emotional argument.

  14. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.

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