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Thread: Alabama Abortion Ban:

  1. #251
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Are we talking about Rush the band or Rush Limbaugh? I'm not a big fan of either, but I'll accept the compliment...I think.

  2. #252
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Are we talking about Rush the band or Rush Limbaugh? I'm not a big fan of either, but I'll accept the compliment...I think.
    Rush L...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  3. #253
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Jim, did you have a chance to read the links I offered in my previous posts on this subject when I first entered this thread? I cited a couple of scholars including Paul Copan and Michael Gorman who help contextualize the passage in question. Gorman, in particular, has some expertise in this field. Also, the Septuagint doesn't help your case. It makes clear that the fetus is the one harmed (see Old Testament scholar Victor Hamilton's Exegetical Commentary on Exodus on this point).
    I did read through them. I've not yet had time to fully follow up on them.

    As a rule, it's usually not good exegesis to sort out complicated passages like this by the "plain reading" of various passages into English. It's always best to check a good commentary from a reliable scholar or peer reviewed work on the subject to come to a better understanding of the subject. Also, I question the value of looking over Augustine's shoulder on this sort of topic. He wasn't Jewish, wasn't (as far as I'm aware) intimately familiar with the culture, and was born nearly a thousand years after Exodus was written (at the earliest). Arguably, modern scholars have better text critical tools, and a better understanding of the culture to better exegete hard Hebrew passages.
    Maybe. But not if they are biased in such a way as to ignore the evidence that shows there is a problem with their conclusions.

    The problem is that most modern scholars tend to dismiss the Septuagint's translation of that passage as a mistake, I believe in part because of the church's historical teaching that abortion is wrong. It is hard to accept that is the correct rendering if one is expecting to see the text support the idea that the fetus at all phases is a human person, and it is much easier to argue against abortion if the text does not mean what the Hellenistic Jews translated it to mean (Yet many of the early church fathers did just that). But more importantly why, given the degree to which Jewish Priests and scribes revere and cherish the Torah, could such an egregious mistake (as it is viewed today) EVER become fixed into something as widely used as the Septuagint (keeping in mind THAT is the text we often find quoted in the NT)? One answer is it simply was not a mistake.

    As I see it, the awkwardness of the existing text, the fact it retains a sense that the death of the fetus is not treated as murder, the Septuagint's seemingly 'wrong' translation relative to the text as we know it today, and the general acceptance of that 'mistake' both by Jewish rabbis and Christian patriarchs from the time point to the Hebrew text of the passage as we know it today being the textual entity that is in error.

    The evidence supporting that conclusion is presented in detail here. I have given the link before, but you may not have seen it.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019 at 03:29 PM.
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  4. #254
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I did read through them. I've not yet had time to fully follow up on them.



    Maybe. But not if they are biased in such a way as to ignore the evidence that shows there is a problem with their conclusions.

    The problem is that most modern scholars tend to dismiss the Septuagint's translation of that passage as a mistake, I believe in part because of the church's historical teaching that abortion is wrong. It is hard to accept that is the correct rendering if one is expecting to see the text support the idea that the fetus at all phases is a human person, and it is much easier to argue against abortion if the text does not mean what the Hellenistic Jews translated it to mean (Yet many of the early church fathers did just that). But more importantly why, given the degree to which Jewish Priests and scribes revere and cherish the Torah, could such an egregious mistake (as it is viewed today) EVER become fixed into something as widely used as the Septuagint (keeping in mind THAT is the text we often find quoted in the NT)? One answer is it simply was not a mistake.

    As I see it, the awkwardness of the existing text, the fact it retains a sense that the death of the fetus is not treated as murder, the Septuagint's seemingly 'wrong' translation relative to the text as we know it today, and the general acceptance of that 'mistake' both by Jewish rabbis and Christian patriarchs from the time point to the Hebrew text of the passage as we know it today being the textual entity that is in error.

    The evidence supporting that conclusion is presented in detail here. I have given the link before, but you may not have seen it.


    Jim
    You don't seem to realize that if you're correct, then you have no valid reason for objecting to abortion for any reason prior to the nebulous point of "personhood".
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  5. Amen QuantaFille, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  6. #255
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Rush L...
    The appropriate tweb response ought to have been "yes"

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  7. #256
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The appropriate tweb response ought to have been "yes"
    Or bacon

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  8. #257
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You don't seem to realize that if you're correct, then you have no valid reason for objecting to abortion for any reason prior to the nebulous point of "personhood".
    Given Augustine and other church Fathers that excepted the Septuagint translation not only didnt think so, they argued strongly against it, I honestly think you are mistaken in that assessment.

    Jim
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  9. #258
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Given Augustine and other church Fathers that excepted the Septuagint translation not only didnt think so, they argued strongly against it, I honestly think you are mistaken in that assessment.

    Jim
    Don't tell me who argued for it, tell me what their arguments actually were, because I can't see any way around the implications without special pleading.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  11. #259
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Don't tell me who argued for it, tell me what their arguments actually were, because I can't see any way around the implications without special pleading.
    You can look them up if you are interested. I will not argue any point from a position that is based on its usefulness as a tool in some other argument. The truth is what matters.

    The one thing I can say is that if we truly value human life, then the fact the fetus at sometime can be stated to be a potential human life should only make the smallest difference in our estimation of its value and our attempts to preserve its development.

    That is, in fact, why rape induced pregnancy and threat to the life of the mother are the only legitimate exceptions.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-20-2019 at 07:37 PM.
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  12. #260
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You can look them up if you are interested. I will not argue any point from a position that is based on its usefulness as a tool in some other argument.
    The point at which someone can't be bothered to defend his own arguments is the point at which I stop caring what he has to say.

    Unfortunately for you, the reasons you've given for carving out an exception for rape depend entirely on special pleading and appeal to emotion which leaves a big hole in your argument.

    I'll leave it at that.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  13. Amen Sparko, mossrose, Cerebrum123, Adrift amen'd this post.

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