Alabama Abortion Ban:

[Mountain Man]

Simple fact is that compassion for the baby and compassion for the mother aren't exactly compatible.

What?!

[tabibito]

What?!

Simple fact is that compassion for the baby and compassion for the mother [sometimes] aren't exactly compatible.

[Mountain Man]

Case in point. The case where I quote the rape victim that suffered PTSD and deep depression to the point of the possibility of suicide - MM BLAMES HER, SAYS SHE MADE IT UP!

False. What I actually said:

I do wonder how many of these "positive" abortion stories are from women who escape the horror of what they've really done by convincing themselves that "I wouldn't be alive today if I hadn't gotten an abortion." A lot of these women might have made a different decision with proper education and counseling grounded in truth and love.

[One Bad Pig]

Simple fact is that compassion for the baby and compassion for the mother [sometimes] aren't exactly compatible.

I disagree, even with your addition. It is more compassionate to support the mother in order for her to carry the baby to term than to make her complicit in terminating it.

[oxmixmudd]

I disagree. Assisting the mother in her undesired condition is showing compassion for both.

Depends doesn't it, on whether the mother is capable of bearing the baby to term. Would your counseling be able to recognize someone who was not, who might commit suicide, who was so traumatized, so overwhelmed she'd never make it to the birth? Or would you abandon her if she just felt she had no choice but to end the pregnancy?

Jim

[tabibito]

I disagree, even with your addition. It is more compassionate to support the mother in order for her to carry the baby to term than to make her complicit in terminating it.

Maybe my expectation was naive, that the other posts I made would have clarified my position as being in line with yours.

ETA
or rather, to give her a real chance to choose carrying the baby to term.

[Mountain Man]

Simple fact is that compassion for the baby and compassion for the mother [sometimes] aren't exactly compatible.

I don't think it's compassionate on any level to allow a woman who had evil committed against her to commit an evil against the unborn child. I keep thinking of the Bible verse that says we should not respond to evil with evil.

[tabibito]

It seems that there is an underlying message in scripture to the effect that you can't legislate people into accepting Christian precepts: you can legislate them into compliance with any number of things - but the key to success is to make compliance a willing choice, not an imposition.
You could tie a rapist up and make sure he never gets the chance to commit rape, but that won't stop him being a rapist.
You can make laws to prevent people performing abortions - but past experience shows that

oh dear - I'm arguing toward the "prohibition doesn't work" line (so favoured by some who post here)

the outcomes are little, if any, better than allowing abortion.

[One Bad Pig]

Depends doesn't it, on whether the mother is capable of bearing the baby to term. Would your counseling be able to recognize someone who was not, who might commit suicide, who was so traumatized, so overwhelmed she'd never make it to the birth?

Having an abortion would be further trauma, Jim. That's only going to make things worse for her mental state.

Or would you abandon her if she just felt she had no choice but to end the pregnancy?

Jim

What? If all else failed, I'd refer her to Rachel's Vineyard or some other service which supports those who have had abortions. I'd do my best to provide support and encourage her to at least carry it to the point of viability and as far as possible beyond that - at which point the baby could be born early and still survive. If it came down to it, I'd even offer to adopt the baby myself.

[One Bad Pig]

Maybe my expectation was naive, that the other posts I made would have clarified my position as being in line with yours.

Your other posts may be in line with mine, but I'd disagree that this particular point was.

[Mountain Man]

It seems that there is an underlying message in scripture to the effect that you can't legislate people into accepting Christian precepts: you can legislate them into compliance with any number of things - but the key to success is to make compliance a willing choice, not an imposition.
You could tie a rapist up and make sure he never gets the chance to commit rape, but that won't stop him being a rapist.
You can make laws to prevent people performing abortions - but past experience shows that

oh dear - I'm arguing toward the "prohibition doesn't work" line (so favoured by some who post here)

the outcomes are little, if any, better than allowing abortion.

It's why John Adams famously said that our Constitution is only suitable for governing a moral and religious people.

[One Bad Pig]

It seems that there is an underlying message in scripture to the effect that you can't legislate people into accepting Christian precepts: you can legislate them into compliance with any number of things - but the key to success is to make compliance a willing choice, not an imposition.
You could tie a rapist up and make sure he never gets the chance to commit rape, but that won't stop him being a rapist.
You can make laws to prevent people performing abortions - but past experience shows that

oh dear - I'm arguing toward the "prohibition doesn't work" line (so favoured by some who post here)

the outcomes are little, if any, better than allowing abortion.

Maybe we shouldn't prohibit murder or theft, then, because complying with the prohibition would be a Christian imposition, not a choice.

[oxmixmudd]

Having an abortion would be further trauma, Jim. That's only going to make things worse for her mental state.

It didn't do that to the women I quoted above.

So - if that is the always the case, then why not just let women whose lives are threatened by the pregnancy just die? I mean, the rest of their lives they are just going to feel guilty and suffer immeasurable guilt - right? And the obvious answer is no they won't, because they realize they really had no choice. So clearly, a women that believes she really has no other viable choice is not going to suffer guilt forever.

What? If all else failed, I'd refer her to Rachel's Vineyard or some other service which supports those who have had abortions. I'd do my best to provide support and encourage her to at least carry it to the point of viability and as far as possible beyond that - at which point the baby could be born early and still survive. If it came down to it, I'd even offer to adopt the baby myself.

That is good, and noble OBP. And I believe you would - I do not doubt your sincerity or willingness to sacrifice.

What if by pushing for that viability outcome she kills herself (and the baby) in despair? It could very easily happen under the PTSD/deep despair conditions of the women quoted above. Is it her fault? Is that better than her aborting the baby early on?

Jim

[One Bad Pig]

It didn't do that to the women I quoted above.

So - if that is the always the case, then why not just let women whose lives are threatened by the pregnancy just die? I mean, the rest of their lives they are just going to feel guilty and suffer immeasurable guilt - right? And the obvious answer is no they won't, because they realize they really had no choice. So clearly, a women that believes she really has no other viable choice is not going to suffer guilt forever.

You realize you're arguing from a hypothetical here, right? You don't know if she would have been better off if she'd had the baby. I know for certain that the baby would be better off.

That is good, and noble OBP. And I believe you would - I do not doubt your sincerity or willingness to sacrifice.

What if by pushing for that viability outcome she kills herself (and the baby) in despair? It could very easily happen under the PTSD/deep despair conditions of the women quoted above. Is it her fault? Is that better than her aborting the baby early on?

Jim

You're not paying attention to what I'm saying, Jim. Let me say it again, in larger letters. Abortion itself is a traumatic experience. If she's that likely to kill herself, abortion is exceedingly unlikely to make matters better for her mental state.

[Sparko]

It didn't do that to the women I quoted above.

So - if that is the always the case, then why not just let women whose lives are threatened by the pregnancy just die? I mean, the rest of their lives they are just going to feel guilty and suffer immeasurable guilt - right? And the obvious answer is no they won't, because they realize they really had no choice. So clearly, a women that believes she really has no other viable choice is not going to suffer guilt forever.

you keep avoiding the point I made earlier that the same circumstances can occur with women who were not raped and don't want to be pregnant. Yet you said earlier that because the pregnancy was due to consensual sex, they should have to bear the burden. Even if they claim they are suicidal?