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Thread: Alabama Abortion Ban:

  1. #51
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Because her suffering emotionally for a few months doesn't compare to murdering an innocent life. She can seek counseling, financial aid, etc. Most crisis pregnancy centers provide both. And will help with adoption if she so chooses. She doesn't have to face it alone.


    What about the mother who gets pregnant through consensual sex and then regrets it or can't afford the doctors or feels emotionally stressed by her pregnancy? Should she be able to terminate that child?
    Your capacity for compassion is underwhelming. You can't have compassion for both the baby and the women here. They are both innocents. And she is a victim, traumatized, facing the prospect her life is taken from her now because of what is beginning to form in her at the hand of that rapist. And she has the right to decide that she will not accept that or allow that to continue. She has the right to say just how much more she will allow that rapist to take from her.


    And though it should not need to be said, there is no comparison to be made between the consequences and responsibilities associated with consensual sex and the consequences of a rape.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019 at 09:53 AM.
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  2. #52
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    And I can say the same thing to you in your utter disregard for what has happened to this women and the financial, psychological, medical and physical burden you would foist upon her without batting an eye. Responsibilities and burdens that were violently placed in her path. And you would condemn her for trying to minimize the consequences?

    Who is going to pay her medical bills?

    Who is going to pay for her counselling?

    Who is going to stand by her side as she cries night after night trying to make sense of it all?

    Who is going to provide the resources she need to take 9 months out of her life if she makes the choice to adopt? Do you suppose she can ever return to what her life was?

    If she bonds with him or her and just can't adopt, who is going to pay to raise this child, send him to school, help him or her deal with the fact their father raped their mother?

    Who is going to protect her and the child when this 'father' cynically tries to get 'parental rights'?

    You would put all this on HER - the victim!



    She is the victim.




    Jim
    Life's not fair, Jim. That doesn't make killing someone okay because he/she's an inconvenience. I find it telling that you - a scientist - have to reach for "doesn't look like a person yet, so not a person" to excuse doing so. Without arguing from emotion, you've got nothing. Nothing.
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  3. Amen mossrose, Christianbookworm, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  4. #53
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Though it should not need to be said, there is no comparison to be made between the consequences and responsibilities associated with consensual sex and the consequences of a rape.

    Jim
    The result is the same. The woman feels distressed at her pregnancy, and might be financially burdened, and doesn't want the child. Why do you have compassion for the state of the rape victim but not of the consenually pregnant one? They are going through the same thing emotionally and financially. In both cases the child is innocent. If you didn't know the origin of the pregnancy you would not know the difference in the women or their state of being.

    So if you are claiming to feel empathy for the rape victim's state of affairs but not the consensual pregnancy, then you are not actually feeling genuine empathy at all, you are basing your entire decision on how the woman became pregnant and not on the woman's emotional or financial state.

  5. #54
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The result is the same. The woman feels distressed at her pregnancy, and might be financially burdened, and doesn't want the child. Why do you have compassion for the state of the rape victim but not of the consenually pregnant one? They are going through the same thing emotionally and financially. In both cases the child is innocent. If you didn't know the origin of the pregnancy you would not know the difference in the women or their state of being.

    So if you are claiming to feel empathy for the rape victim's state of affairs but not the consensual pregnancy, then you are not actually feeling genuine empathy at all, you are basing your entire decision on how the woman became pregnant and not on the woman's emotional or financial state.
    Nope. This was a situation violently imposed on the women. She is a victim, as is the child forming in her.

    With consensual sex between adults, there is no crime, there is no victim, therefore there is no reason to consider abortion as a potential option to reduce the extent and consequences of said crime to said victim.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019 at 09:57 AM.
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  6. #55
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Nope. This was a situation violently imposed on the women. She is a victim, as is the child forming in her.

    With consensual sex between adults, there is no crime, there is no victim, therefore there is no reason to consider abortion as a potential option to reduce the extent and consequences of said crime to said victim.


    Jim
    So the actual emotional state of the woman and any financial burden is not really the reason you think she should be allowed to have an abortion, but because she is the victim of a crime. That pretty much wipes away your earlier emotional argument about how hard it would be on the woman. Because you don't care about the hardship on the woman who had consensual sex, you believe she can deal with the stress and should do so.

  7. Amen Mountain Man, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  8. #56
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    No - it's a 100% appeal to compassion for a victim of a violent crime. It's an appeal to mercy for the victim of a violent crime - to not demand she sacrifice her entire life at the feet of this rapist.

    Jim
    And where's your compassion for the innocent human life that was brought into the world through no fault of its own? This is exactly the sort of logical inconsistency that emotional appeals lead to.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. Amen mossrose, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  10. #57
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    And where's your compassion for the innocent human life that was brought into the world through no fault of its own? This is exactly the sort of logical inconsistency that emotional appeals lead to.
    You are sacrificing real compassion for a living, breathing, human being that is the victim of a horrible crime for abstract, fantasy compassion for a potential human being that as yet can neither see, breath, hear, think, eat, or even perceive in any way any element of what is happening around it.

    You are ignoring what has happened to the women and foisting the responsibility for this potential child upon her. It is not her responsibility, it is the rapists. But one certainly can't expect him accept that - now can we?

    And again I will make the point you just can't seem to hold in your brain long enough to let it effect the content of your posts -

    I am not recommending abortion, I am saying it is wrong to take from her, the victim of the rape, that option.



    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019 at 11:00 AM.
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  11. #58
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Denying someone is a human -- taking away their very personhood -- just to rationalize killing them is the ultimate expression of callousness and lacking compassion.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  12. #59
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So the actual emotional state of the woman and any financial burden is not really the reason you think she should be allowed to have an abortion, but because she is the victim of a crime. That pretty much wipes away your earlier emotional argument about how hard it would be on the woman. Because you don't care about the hardship on the woman who had consensual sex, you believe she can deal with the stress and should do so.
    Nope.

    The women who has consensual sex is consenting to the potential hardship that is the consequence of her choice.

    The raped women is not.

    Consider:

    I can choose to climb Mount Everest and if I die, that is my choice.

    If I force someone to climb Mount Everest and they die, I am a murderer.


    You can't take the moral responsibility to own the consequences of ones own choices and say that means someone forced to do the same thing also has to own the consequences. I am not responsible for the consequences of something you force me to do. You are.


    Therefore, allowing rape as an exception clause for a ban on abortions does not in any way apply the reasons that exception clause might exist to any manner of consensual sex that produces a pregnancy. The raped women is victim and is not responsible to accept the consequences of the rapists actions. The women that had consensual sex is not a victim and through her own choice is pregnant and thus must accept the consequences of her own actions.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-16-2019 at 10:51 AM.
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

  13. #60
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Denying someone is a human -- taking away their very personhood -- just to rationalize killing them is the ultimate expression of callousness and lacking compassion.
    To deny someone is human, there must be a 'someone' that is or has been there in the first place.

    And then there is the issue that two innocent lives are here endangered by a criminal act, and in some cases one must then be chosen over the other.

    So that simply isn't what is happening in the case of an abortion that is done to prevent a rape pregnancy from going full term.

    Jim
    Jorge's trueorigins paper: "...it is known that other volcanic features match what is usually associated with impact craters including ... shatter cones and crystal deformations"

    Planetary Science Institute: "Shatter cones are found in only two places on Earth, 1) in nuclear test sites and 2) meteorite impact structures. They are formed as a result of the high pressure, high velocity shock wave ...

    maximum pressures from 45 to 200 times greater than found in volcanic events (2->20 Gpa)

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