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Alabama Abortion Ban:

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    correct, the law is contradictory. The fetus appears to be a person if the mother doesn't want an abortion and the fetus dies because of the actions of another person and not a person when she does want an abortion.
    Seems a good lawyer could make a case either way with that.




    Jim
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      Seems a good lawyer could make a case either way with that.




      Jim
      Maybe they will try to argue she was going to get an abortion anyway. I doubt that would float with the jury though. Also the the baby was 5 months along. Easily viable and would have been against the law to abort.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        That was one example, and of course it would be better NOT to allow a rapist ANY access - direct or indirect - to whatever child he may have fostered or the woman he raped for as long as he is alive.

        But there are a lot of reasons I don't feel it is right to force a woman to bear the child of her rapist. That doesn't mean I don't think the best choice in the end would be for her to keep the baby assuming she is psychologically capable of doing so, or carrying the baby to term and adopting - again if she can. But to force her to do so is making her the victim of both the rape and the state.

        This opinion of mine is also coupled to my recognition that there is a period of time early in the pregnancy when the mind does not yet exist, which I feel tips the balance in favor of the woman's choice early on in this extreme case.

        The discussion was heated. And often became personal - so I'll not respond to anything along the lines of how horrible I am for having such an opinion, but if you are interested in discussing that opinion objectively along scientific of scriptural avenues, I'll give it a go.


        Jim
        So, if an arsonist sets a fire that burns someone badly, is he also forcing the victim to endure burn treatment? Assume for the moment that another person, a relative, not the arsonist, is a perfect match and using that person's skin would alleviate months of suffering - if we are unwilling to kill that person for his skin, are we forcing the victim to suffer?


        The negative consequence isn't itself force, nor does it follow that not allowing a third party to be killed is an offense against the aggrieved. I can't see the justification here for another person's crime resulting in the execution of a known innocent.


        Calm enough?
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

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        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Which means our laws on this are in fact self contradictory. If a fetus is legally a person in a car accident, or in the case of the shooting, it should be considered a person wrt the abortion issue.

          I don't understand how, if this is how the law works governing actions that cause the death of a fetus, abortion could be legal at any time during gestation when these sorts of laws apply.


          Jim

          No, no - we talked about this. You can't apply common sense to abortion law - it's like putting kerosene on a blowtorch.


          The real (and still stupid) answer has to do with the 'right' to privacy that seems to only apply to infanticide...
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            So, if an arsonist sets a fire that burns someone badly, is he also forcing the victim to endure burn treatment? Assume for the moment that another person, a relative, not the arsonist, is a perfect match and using that person's skin would alleviate months of suffering - if we are unwilling to kill that person for his skin, are we forcing the victim to suffer?


            The negative consequence isn't itself force, nor does it follow that not allowing a third party to be killed is an offense against the aggrieved. I can't see the justification here for another person's crime resulting in the execution of a known innocent.


            Calm enough?
            Calm enough on the outside, but hard to take seriously.

            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Calm enough on the outside, but hard to take seriously.

              Jim
              Then I don't get your argument. The rapist commits the crime; the baby is killed for it. I grant I'm not mincing words but I believe I am correctly assessing the argument.

              I suppose I could take it from the other direction: the abortion constitutes a second violation of the woman (there's evidence to back this up) but you argued force after the fact and I see no more 'force' than when someone complains about evangelism 'forcing' a worldview on the listener.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                Then I don't get your argument. The rapist commits the crime; the baby is killed for it. I grant I'm not mincing words but I believe I am correctly assessing the argument.
                It's not anywhere near that simple. First, in addition to the life threatening trauma of the rape itself, the women has 9 months of her life taken from her and the responsibility for determining the life direction of a child after those 9 months FORCED upon her.

                Second, the issue is a process has begun but has not even reached the point where even the barest semblance of a mind has yet begun to form. We recognize that even late in that process, when the fetus is all but out of the womb, if the women's life is itself in danger abortion can be justified. So balancing the threat to the life of the women vs the relative development of the fetus, in this case I believe the trauma of the rape and the forced imposition of this responsibility can justify stopping that process if done early enough, before a mind begins to form.

                I suppose I could take it from the other direction: the abortion constitutes a second violation of the woman (there's evidence to back this up) but you argued force after the fact and I see no more 'force' than when someone complains about evangelism 'forcing' a worldview on the listener.
                I believe that there is some truth to what you are saying. I think for many women the right choice would be to take the baby to term, even to keep it, in the right environment where the rapist can't come hunting her or the child.

                The issue as I see it is the state FORCING the woman to accept that life long consequence of the rapist's actions when we do have a medical capacity to detect it and do something about it before the fetus reaches a stage where to do so would in fact be killing a human person.

                Of course, when one believes the fetus becomes a human person factors into this strongly, and that is what makes rational discussion of this so difficult. Just so we are clear - I do not support abortion on demand. Allowing a women that was raped and impregnated to have the option of abortion early on is not abortion as generalized birth control or even close to it. I don't have statistics, but I would not be surprised to find a person is more likely to need an abortion because her life is in danger from the pregnancy than to need an abortion because a rapist made her pregnant. And I believe it makes more sense than telling her that yes he raped you, and now yes, you MUST bear his child. And in our world, that also means telling her, 'and oh, BTW, even though we are making you bear this child, if he comes along and demands parental rights, we're going to give them to him whether or not you adopt the child, and this child, and possibly you, are going to have to interact with him the rest of your life.'

                It's all very horrible. She is the victim. Again and Again. The new life that is forming is also a victim, one way or the other.


                Jim
                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-29-2019, 01:01 PM.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Jim, I will come back to this but this week is crazy busy for me and it deserves a better response that I have time for right now.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Jim, I will come back to this but this week is crazy busy for me and it deserves a better response that I have time for right now.
                    NP. I have a very long post representing about a week of research examining scriptural issues associated with this topic that I never posted in response to some of the criticisms of my position. So if the opportunity arises in our discussion, I may dig some of that up and integrate it into our conversation.

                    Jim
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment

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