Alabama Abortion Ban:

[oxmixmudd]

Rogue - you are smarter and more honest than to be purposefully mischaracterizing a person's view or stated position. What you have just said is libel.

I am pro-life, but I view the initial stages (prior to formation of the nervous system) as not yet a person. Human life with the potential to become a person, but not yet. And that is hugely different from what you just said. An unborn baby can be 8 months 2 weeks gestation. I am talking about the first 4 to 6 weeks at most. Further, I am not advocating for that distinction to make abortion on demand something moral, or acceptable in the normal case during this early period. But in THIS case (the case of a women made pregnant by a rapist against her will), it is an important difference and must be taken into account. The difference being there are two innocents whose lives can't both be saved as they currently are. And during that early period, I believe the choice can be morally made to allow the women to preserve what is left of her life as it was before the rape.

Jim

I would add this:

I do think that the woman needs to be very carefully counselled (not something likely from the typical planned parenthood establishment). I am not sure most women can carry a baby any appreciable length of time and then abort it with a clear conscience - even if it came from rape. But I believe the choice has to be left up to her ... but that is a horrible position to be in for anyone. My arguments here are totally targeting the idea of taking the option from her, of FORCING her to carry it to term. The psychological impact of NOT having a choice can be torture all on its own and is part of what I'm talking about as it relates to re-victimizing her. If you give her the choice, then her conscience is free to choose what she truly believes is the right thing to do without the feeling she was required to do it. It is far easier to own a decision to make a sacrifice if you were not held at gun point while you're were making that decision.


Jim

[Mountain Man]

Yep - I honestly can say that [you're ignoring what has happened to the women and foisting the responsibility for this potential child upon her].

Then you either didn't go through the thread and reread my posts carefully, or you're a liar.

I sympathize with victims of rape, they have suffered an evil, but committing another evil in the event that they become pregnant is not the answer.

I'm not saying there won't be emotional hardships associated with [keeping the baby], but murdering the baby is not the answer, and in fact could make things worse for the mother, both physically and emotionally.

Women who are raped generally suffer from guilt and PTSD, and getting an abortion will only make things worse for her.

Go on, tell me again that I'm ignoring what happened to the woman.

[oxmixmudd]

Then you either didn't go through the thread and reread my posts carefully, or you're a liar.

Go on, tell me again that I'm ignoring what happened to the woman.

Window dressing. I know you think you care. But putting the full weight and responsibilty of bearing and determining the destiny of the child of the man who raped her on her shoulders alone, and then foisting the charge of murder on her if she decides she cannot bear that burden shows you simply do not.

Jim

[QuantaFille]

I seem to remember seeing statistics that show that the majority of women who abort a baby conceived by rape regret it. They suffer a lot of guilt afterwards and it just makes the problem worse. Reacting in violence towards an innocent third party in response to trauma is not mentally healthy. These women need counseling, yes, but putting a child up for adoption isn't going to end a mother's life, Jim. Going through a pregnancy isn't going to end her career, either. In the US at least, there are laws against terminating a woman's employment because of pregnancy. They have to give her maternity leave. And the rapist should be forced to pay her medical bills and child support whether the birth mother keeps the child or not.

[QuantaFille]

Window dressing. I know you think you care. But putting the full weight and responsibilty of bearing and determining the destiny of the child of the man who raped her on her shoulders alone, and then foisting the charge of murder on her if she decides she cannot bear that burden shows you simply do not.

Jim

You act like she's not allowed to put the child up for adoption.

[oxmixmudd]

You act like she's not allowed to put the child up for adoption.

You ever endure a pregnancy and a birth?

You act like she can be bop down to a vending machine, throw in 3 quarters and out pops a baby.

You ever seen the medical bills associated with a pregnancy? You act like its $10.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

Window dressing. I know you think you care. But putting the full weight and responsibilty of bearing and determining the destiny of the child of the man who raped her on her shoulders alone, and then foisting the charge of murder on her if she decides she cannot bear that burden shows you simply do not.

Jim

And the only way you can reach that conclusion is by hypocritically dismissing my actual words as "window dressing".

Your problem is that in the event that a woman becomes pregnant as the result of a rape, you only have compassion for one of the victims and defend abortion in that instance as an act of "self-defense" (classic pro-abortion argument, that). One might even call it ankle-deep compassion.

[tabibito]

Might be interesting to compare percentage statistics. What percentage of abortions is occupied by people who have been raped, incestuous relationships, danger to the mother, financial restraints, just because the pregnancy is inconvenient. At a guess, less than 8 percent for the first three combined ... maybe 12% for the first four combined.

[oxmixmudd]

As i mentioned earlier, the rape exception belongs in thecssme class as 'danger to the life of the mother'. An excerpt from the testimony of a woman who was raped and then discovered she was pregnant by the rapist.

Source: cnn

Blakely said the moment she was discovered she was pregnant with her rapist's child was "the worst moment of my life."

"I can recall being in the bathroom," she said, "and biting on my shower curtain to keep from screaming so loudly because I was so distraught."

That experience was incredibly traumatic, Blakely said. As a result, she suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and major depressive disorder. If she had been unable to get an abortion and forced to carry her rapist's child to term, Blakely said, "I can honestly say that I would not be here."

© Copyright Original Source

For this woman, it was exactly that, life or death - for her. And I doubt her story is uncommon in that situation.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

And the only way you can reach that conclusion is by hypocritically dismissing my actual words as "window dressing".

Your problem is that in the event that a woman becomes pregnant as the result of a rape, you only have compassion for one of the victims and defend abortion in that instance as an act of "self-defense" (classic pro-abortion argument, that). One might even call it ankle-deep compassion.

No mm. You're clueless. Your willingness to put this all on her nullifies your words. Your incapacity to recognize the cost to her of all thay is 'her life', the fact you minimize the cost to her and shrug it off with 'there are organizations that will help'. Your starements of concern have depth. They are just window dressing.

But i recognize from your consistent lack of capacity to empathize with anyone in real distress outside a very small ideological circle as displayed on these pages day after day that these words fall on deaf ears.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

As i mentioned earlier, the rape exception belongs in thecssme class as 'danger to the life of the mother'. An excerpt from the testimony of a woman who was raped and then discovered she was pregnant by the rapist.

Source: cnn

Blakely said the moment she was discovered she was pregnant with her rapist's child was "the worst moment of my life."

"I can recall being in the bathroom," she said, "and biting on my shower curtain to keep from screaming so loudly because I was so distraught."

That experience was incredibly traumatic, Blakely said. As a result, she suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and major depressive disorder. If she had been unable to get an abortion and forced to carry her rapist's child to term, Blakely said, "I can honestly say that I would not be here."

© Copyright Original Source

For this woman, it was exactly that, life or death - for her. And I doubt her story is uncommon in that situation.

Jim

And you can find equally moving stories about women who kept their babies, and children who are grateful to be alive because they weren't killed before even being allowed to take their first breath.

So what? It's not a question of which story pulls the most heartstrings, it's a question of what is the morally right choice, and I'm sorry, but murder under any circumstances is immoral by definition. I honestly can't even wrap my head around the moral gymnastics you're using to justify killing the most innocent of human lives as an act of self-defense.

And I do wonder how many of these "positive" abortion stories are from women who escape the horror of what they've really done by convincing themselves that "I wouldn't be alive today if I hadn't gotten an abortion." A lot of these women might have made a different decision with proper education and counseling grounded in truth and love.

But I guess that's all just "window dressing" to you.

[Sparko]

No - it is not fair that the rapist only gets a few years in prison. If the rapist gets the victim pregnant, and she feels she has no choice but to abort the baby, he should get whatever sentence would be afforded infanticide. If she keeps the baby, he should be garnished child support (which should include the full cost of child care and 1/2 food, clothing etc) for the entire time the child is being raised and forced to save 1/2 the cost of college, with no parental rights of any sort. Violation of which lands the fellow back in prison for the entire 22 year period typical to take a child to independence.

It is ALL on him.


Jim

smh.

wow Jim. No matter what sentence you give the rapist, if the mother chooses to kill her baby, she is the one who answers to God. She is the one who chose to end an innocent child's life. I agree that if she keeps the child he should be on the hook for child support, if she wants it.

Why are you telling the children of rape that they don't deserve to live? What did they do wrong?

[oxmixmudd]

And you can find equally moving stories about women who kept their babies, and children who are grateful to be alive because they weren't killed before even being allowed to take their first breath.

Yes, but which means the mother also survived the pregnancy. In the situation you are responding to, the choice was two deaths or one.

So what? It's not a question of which story pulls the most heartstrings, it's a question of what is the morally right choice, and I'm sorry, but murder under any circumstances is immoral by definition. I honestly can't even wrap my head around the moral gymnastics you're using to justify killing the most innocent of human lives as an act of self-defense.

It is not murder when it is the choice between 1 life or 2.

And I do wonder how many of these "positive" abortion stories are from women who escape the horror of what they've really done by convincing themselves that "I wouldn't be alive today if I hadn't gotten an abortion." A lot of these women might have made a different decision with proper education and counseling grounded in truth and love.

As I said above - you have no capacity for empathy outside your own very, very small ideological world. Look at how you respond to this REAL WORLD example! You turn on HER. Now you would put on this women raped and traumatized to the point of deep depression and likely suicide not only the charge of murder but now would add to it self-deception driven by a desire for self-justification! Yep - it's all her fault. Not a word about what this rapist has done to her. Not a word about his responsibility in this. Not a word about how nearly impossible it would be to deal with what she is dealing with.

She was the victim MM. She was diagnosed with PTSD and deep traumatic depression. The threat of suicide was real and imminent.

But I guess that's all just "window dressing" to you.

The positive stories are not window dressing, but they are also not going to be the story of every women who becames pregnant by rape. As I said before, I am not advocating that abortion is necessarily the right solution to this outcome of a rape. I am saying that in the case of rape, the woman needs to have the option because for some women, the choice is 1 life or 2. And you can't condemn the woman for whom that is the reality of what the rape has done to her - any more than you can condemn a war veteran suffering PTSD. SHE IS THE VICTIM.


Jim

[Sparko]

How does God view self-defense?

so now the baby is attacking the mother and trying to kill her? What are you smoking?

God knows what a person can handle. And (I know you don't accept this, but it is what it is) the OT law - in the original text - apparently makes the distinction between the unformed child and the formed child when determining the punishment for a man who through his actions kills the unborn.

So then why are you against a mother having an abortion who has had consensual sex but who can't handle the idea of carrying a baby to term? Why don't you think God knows what she can handle? What's the difference?

Whether it got worse for the woman would depend a lot on her own sense of what the child was at the stage of development she is weighing her options. I am pretty sure my wife would keep the child in such a case, so highly does she value life and children. But not everyone can accept that responsibility. It's going to be a horrible decision for anyone. But in this case, it is her decision to make, not mine, not yours, not the state's, and certainly not the rapist's.

Your reasoning here allows abortion for any case as long as the mother can't emotionally handle the idea of becoming a mother. Your arguments continue to sound more and more like any other pro-choice proponent. congratulations.

[oxmixmudd]

smh.

wow Jim. No matter what sentence you give the rapist, if the mother chooses to kill her baby, she is the one who answers to God. She is the one who chose to end an innocent child's life. I agree that if she keeps the child he should be on the hook for child support, if she wants it.

Why are you telling the children of rape that they don't deserve to live? What did they do wrong?

The child didn't do anything wrong. It is just a pawn in the hands of the rapist. And neither did she. She is just a victim of his negligence, violence, and hatred.

And it isn't murder - in the case where the abortion is justified, it is 1 life or 2. But only she can know which it is - so she must be the one to decide.

And it is ALL on him.


Jim