Ancient of Days, Indeed

[Cow Poke]

Yup - The Holy Spirit, and therefore God, is omnipresent beyond all doubt. Scripture is less certain about Christ, except as situational (where believers are gathered) + Jesus stating that if he does not return to the Father (Fathers location elsewhere being thereby asserted) the Holy Spirit will not come. Scripture itself doesn't seem to locate the Father as anywhere but heaven.

Jesus had a physical body - God and the Holy Spirit did (do) not. Jesus said: "God is Spirit" (John 4:24)

[tabibito]

Agreed - God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
Given that spirits usually seem to have a discrete existence, ("legion," ghosts, et al) the simple statement that God is spirit doesn't address the issue of location of the Father.

[Cow Poke]

Agreed - God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
Given that spirits usually seem to have a discrete existence, ("legion," ghosts, et al) the simple statement that God is spirit doesn't address the issue of location of the Father.

You're doing that thing again where you're trying to compartmentalize the Trinity. They are One.

[Adrift]

Assertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.

Where does the Lord's prayer claim that the Father is?

It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.

Likewise, when Solomon was dedicating the temple (the "dwelling place" of God on earth) he prays,

Yup - The Holy Spirit, and therefore God, is omnipresent beyond all doubt. Scripture is less certain about Christ, except as situational (where believers are gathered) + Jesus stating that if he does not return to the Father (Fathers location elsewhere being thereby asserted) the Holy Spirit will not come. Scripture itself doesn't seem to locate the Father as anywhere but heaven.

As far as I can tell, there's nothing in that passage that points specifically to the the Holy Spirit alone. I looked through a few commentaries on Psalms, and couldn't find anything that would suggest that. God the Father is a spirit.

Other passages that discuss the transcendent and omnipresent nature of God include,









And dozens of other verses referring to God being with us, knowing our thoughts, our secret sins, our hearts desires, etc., refer back to his omniscience and omnipresence.

[tabibito]

Assertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.

Perhaps so, but I didn't argue that.

It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.

If one member of the Trinity acts or is located somewhere, God acts or is located in that place. It does not take all persons of the trinity to be directly involved. God created the heavens and the Earth - scripture records that everything was created by Logos - Father and Holy Spirit seemingly were not directly involved. The Father being in heaven only, would not mean that God is in heaven only.

Likewise, when Solomon was dedicating the temple (the "dwelling place" of God on earth) he prays,





As far as I can tell, there's nothing in that passage that points specifically to the the Holy Spirit alone. I looked through a few commentaries on Psalms, and couldn't find anything that would suggest that. God the Father is a spirit.

The passage specifies God; there is no telling from that passage (internally) whether this is God as a single person of the trinity or the trinity as a combination.

Other passages that discuss the transcendent and omnipresent nature of God include,









And dozens of other verses referring to God being with us, knowing our thoughts, our secret sins, our hearts desires, etc., refer back to his omniscience and omnipresence.

The issue is not whether God is omnipresent, omniscient etc ... the issue is whether each of the persons are capable of independent action and presence, or whether it is necessary for all to be acting in the same way at the same time. Modalism would require the latter, standard doctrine of the trinity would not.

[Obsidian]

So, is there a scripture somewhere that shows the Father to not be in heaven at some given time, or that he is present on Earth (or someplace else) even while he is in heaven?

Exodus 33 and the surrounding chapters seem to show the Father descending on Mount Sinai.

Ezekiel 1 seems to include all three persons traveling and meeting Ezekiel near the river. Notably, one figure is shown, which the text calls the Word of Jehovah, but three voices are mentioned coming from the throne.

So God the Father does sometimes descend out of heaven, and then ascend back.

Proverbs 30:4

And that is another possible explanation for Chrawnus's verse that heaven cannot "contain" God. However, I think the easier, better answer is that the verse is just saying that Holy Spirit serves as the Father's eyes and ears.

[tabibito]

Exodus 33 and the surrounding chapters seem to show the Father descending on Mount Sinai.

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
If Jesus was right in saying that no man had seen the Father at any time, this would not lend itself to the Father being seen by Moses. Either of the other persons of the trinity, certainly. I'm fairly sure that Logos would be the one.

Ezekiel 1 seems to include all three persons traveling and meeting Ezekiel near the river. Notably, one figure is shown, which the text calls the Word of Jehovah, but three voices are mentioned coming from the throne.

The heavens were opened and Ezekiel saw visions of God. Likewise with Stephen seeing the glory of God (significant?) and Son of man together in heaven.

So God the Father does sometimes descend out of heaven, and then ascend back.

Seems likely for that to be the case, and that in doing so the Father would remain unseen.

Proverbs 30:4

Near as I could tell this would be Logos, if Ephesians 4:8-10 is loosely related.

And that is another possible explanation for Chrawnus's verse that heaven cannot "contain" God. However, I think the easier, better answer is that the verse is just saying that Holy Spirit serves as the Father's eyes and ears.

[Adrift]

[Obsidian]

Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

Later in the chapter it says that Moses couldn't see God's face. So either the verse you cited is a figure of speech, or else it is talking about something different from what happens later in the chapter (i.e., spoke with the Son face to face, but could only see the back of the Father).

The heavens were opened and Ezekiel saw visions of God.

Not sure what to make of that, but it clearly describes God as moving. It says he comes from the north. It mentions one of the wheels touching the ground.

[rogue06]

Assertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.



It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.

Could it be just a way to make clear which Father is being referenced -- our heavenly Father as opposed to our earthly one?

[Adrift]

Could it be just a way to make clear which Father is being referenced -- our heavenly Father as opposed to our earthly one?

I'm sure there's something to that, but the NT scholars I've read tend to think there's more going on when Matthew invokes the phrase "your Father who is in heaven / heavenly Father." I think Luke uses this phrase once, but it's an expression that Matthew uses a number of times.

[Mountain Man]

Christ does say that no one has seen His "form." Suggesting that God does have form, and a form would be localized. Though His power and reach would still be universal.

God allowed Moses to see his back suggesting some form.

But ultimately, I think God in his entirety is incomprehensible to humans. The reason we'll never be bored in heaven is because we'll spend an eternity learning everything there is to know about an infinite being.

[Cow Poke]

God allowed Moses to see his back suggesting some form.

But ultimately, I think God in his entirety is incomprehensible to humans. The reason we'll never be bored in heaven is because we'll spend an eternity learning everything there is to know about an infinite being.

Yeah, I often say I'll spend the first million years just walking around saying "wow".... and... "man, I got THAT wrong!"

[Mountain Man]

As my theology professor used to say, "One day, God is going to correct everybody's theology!"