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Thread: Ancient of Days, Indeed

  1. #31
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Yup - The Holy Spirit, and therefore God, is omnipresent beyond all doubt. Scripture is less certain about Christ, except as situational (where believers are gathered) + Jesus stating that if he does not return to the Father (Fathers location elsewhere being thereby asserted) the Holy Spirit will not come. Scripture itself doesn't seem to locate the Father as anywhere but heaven.
    Jesus had a physical body - God and the Holy Spirit did (do) not. Jesus said: "God is Spirit" (John 4:24)
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Agreed - God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
    Given that spirits usually seem to have a discrete existence, ("legion," ghosts, et al) the simple statement that God is spirit doesn't address the issue of location of the Father.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  3. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
  4. #33
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Agreed - God is spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
    Given that spirits usually seem to have a discrete existence, ("legion," ghosts, et al) the simple statement that God is spirit doesn't address the issue of location of the Father.
    You're doing that thing again where you're trying to compartmentalize the Trinity. They are One.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Assertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Where does the Lord's prayer claim that the Father is?
    It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.

    Likewise, when Solomon was dedicating the temple (the "dwelling place" of God on earth) he prays,

    Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 8:27

    “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! 28 Yet have regard to the prayer of your servant and to his plea, O Lord my God, listening to the cry and to the prayer that your servant prays before you this day, 29 that your eyes may be open night and day toward this house, the place of which you have said, ‘My name shall be there,’ that you may listen to the prayer that your servant offers toward this place. 30 And listen to the plea of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. And listen in heaven your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Yup - The Holy Spirit, and therefore God, is omnipresent beyond all doubt. Scripture is less certain about Christ, except as situational (where believers are gathered) + Jesus stating that if he does not return to the Father (Fathers location elsewhere being thereby asserted) the Holy Spirit will not come. Scripture itself doesn't seem to locate the Father as anywhere but heaven.
    As far as I can tell, there's nothing in that passage that points specifically to the the Holy Spirit alone. I looked through a few commentaries on Psalms, and couldn't find anything that would suggest that. God the Father is a spirit.

    Other passages that discuss the transcendent and omnipresent nature of God include,

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 23:23

    “Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Acts 17:24

    The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,[c] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

    “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

    as even some of your own poets have said,

    “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 57:15

    For this is what the high and exalted one says,
    the one who rules forever, whose name is holy:
    “I dwell in an exalted and holy place,
    but also with the discouraged and humiliated,
    in order to cheer up the humiliated
    and to encourage the discouraged."

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 66:1

    Thus says the Lord:
    “Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool;
    what is the house that you would build for me,
    and what is the place of my rest?

    © Copyright Original Source



    And dozens of other verses referring to God being with us, knowing our thoughts, our secret sins, our hearts desires, etc., refer back to his omniscience and omnipresence.

  6. Amen One Bad Pig, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  7. #35
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Assertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.
    Perhaps so, but I didn't argue that.



    It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.
    If one member of the Trinity acts or is located somewhere, God acts or is located in that place. It does not take all persons of the trinity to be directly involved. God created the heavens and the Earth - scripture records that everything was created by Logos - Father and Holy Spirit seemingly were not directly involved. The Father being in heaven only, would not mean that God is in heaven only.

    Likewise, when Solomon was dedicating the temple (the "dwelling place" of God on earth) he prays,

    Scripture Verse: 1 Kings 8:27

    “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! 28 Yet have regard to the prayer of your servant and to his plea, O Lord my God, listening to the cry and to the prayer that your servant prays before you this day, 29 that your eyes may be open night and day toward this house, the place of which you have said, ‘My name shall be there,’ that you may listen to the prayer that your servant offers toward this place. 30 And listen to the plea of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. And listen in heaven your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.

    © Copyright Original Source





    As far as I can tell, there's nothing in that passage that points specifically to the the Holy Spirit alone. I looked through a few commentaries on Psalms, and couldn't find anything that would suggest that. God the Father is a spirit.
    The passage specifies God; there is no telling from that passage (internally) whether this is God as a single person of the trinity or the trinity as a combination.

    Other passages that discuss the transcendent and omnipresent nature of God include,

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 23:23

    “Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Acts 17:24

    The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,[c] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

    “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

    as even some of your own poets have said,

    “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 57:15

    For this is what the high and exalted one says,
    the one who rules forever, whose name is holy:
    “I dwell in an exalted and holy place,
    but also with the discouraged and humiliated,
    in order to cheer up the humiliated
    and to encourage the discouraged."

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 66:1

    Thus says the Lord:
    “Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool;
    what is the house that you would build for me,
    and what is the place of my rest?

    © Copyright Original Source



    And dozens of other verses referring to God being with us, knowing our thoughts, our secret sins, our hearts desires, etc., refer back to his omniscience and omnipresence.
    The issue is not whether God is omnipresent, omniscient etc ... the issue is whether each of the persons are capable of independent action and presence, or whether it is necessary for all to be acting in the same way at the same time. Modalism would require the latter, standard doctrine of the trinity would not.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  8. #36
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabibito
    So, is there a scripture somewhere that shows the Father to not be in heaven at some given time, or that he is present on Earth (or someplace else) even while he is in heaven?
    Exodus 33 and the surrounding chapters seem to show the Father descending on Mount Sinai.

    Ezekiel 1 seems to include all three persons traveling and meeting Ezekiel near the river. Notably, one figure is shown, which the text calls the Word of Jehovah, but three voices are mentioned coming from the throne.

    So God the Father does sometimes descend out of heaven, and then ascend back.

    Proverbs 30:4

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?


    And that is another possible explanation for Chrawnus's verse that heaven cannot "contain" God. However, I think the easier, better answer is that the verse is just saying that Holy Spirit serves as the Father's eyes and ears.

  9. #37
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Exodus 33 and the surrounding chapters seem to show the Father descending on Mount Sinai.
    Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
    If Jesus was right in saying that no man had seen the Father at any time, this would not lend itself to the Father being seen by Moses. Either of the other persons of the trinity, certainly. I'm fairly sure that Logos would be the one.

    Ezekiel 1 seems to include all three persons traveling and meeting Ezekiel near the river. Notably, one figure is shown, which the text calls the Word of Jehovah, but three voices are mentioned coming from the throne.
    The heavens were opened and Ezekiel saw visions of God. Likewise with Stephen seeing the glory of God (significant?) and Son of man together in heaven.

    So God the Father does sometimes descend out of heaven, and then ascend back.
    Seems likely for that to be the case, and that in doing so the Father would remain unseen.

    Proverbs 30:4

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
    Near as I could tell this would be Logos, if Ephesians 4:8-10 is loosely related.

    And that is another possible explanation for Chrawnus's verse that heaven cannot "contain" God. However, I think the easier, better answer is that the verse is just saying that Holy Spirit serves as the Father's eyes and ears.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  10. #38
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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  11. Amen One Bad Pig, Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  12. #39
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito
    Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
    Later in the chapter it says that Moses couldn't see God's face. So either the verse you cited is a figure of speech, or else it is talking about something different from what happens later in the chapter (i.e., spoke with the Son face to face, but could only see the back of the Father).

    The heavens were opened and Ezekiel saw visions of God.
    Not sure what to make of that, but it clearly describes God as moving. It says he comes from the north. It mentions one of the wheels touching the ground.

  13. #40
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Assertions that God may physically be situated in a location rather than everywhere present sounds like a slippery slope into Mormon/Jehovah Witness doctrine.



    It seems to me that references to "our Father in heaven," or "heavenly Father" aren't intended to describe God as living spatially or physically (or dimensionally, perhaps) in some heavenly place. In order to read it that way, you'd have to argue that the writer of Matthew wasn't familiar with passages that seem to indicate that God is omnipresent in the Old Testament. Rather, I'd argue that the point of using the phrase "Father in heaven" in the Lord's Prayer is to address both God's sovereignty over heaven that is to come down to earth, and the Gospel writer's deliberate contrast between the nature of heavenly/holy God in contrast to earthly humanity. Far from indicating that he is localized, the use of the endearing term Father/Abba is meant to add tension to the phrase "who is in heaven," indicating both God's familiarity, and his distinctiveness, his immanence and transcendence.
    Could it be just a way to make clear which Father is being referenced -- our heavenly Father as opposed to our earthly one?

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