Ancient of Days, Indeed

[JonathanL]

The Father is localized...

I would be interest in what passages of scripture you're using on which to base that belief.

[tabibito]

I would be interest in what passages of scripture you're using on which to base that belief.

Methinks it would be easier to produce scriptures in support of the pro argument than it would the con. Off the top of my head.

[JonathanL]

Methinks it would be easier to produce scriptures in support of the pro argument than it would the con. Off the top of my head.

Well, I'm aware of verses that at least at a quick glance would seem to support the belief that the Father is localized. But we also have passages like Solomon's prayer in 1 Kings 8 where he states "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!" (1 Kings 8:27), which leads me to believe that any scripture passage that seem to speak of the Father in a localized manner is either using poetic, metaphorical or symbolic language (as in an apocalyptic vision).

Of course, Obsidian could be thinking of completely different types scripture passages that cannot easily be taken as either poetic, metaphorical or symbolic/apocalyptic, but I have no idea of knowing until/unless he answers my question.

[Obsidian]

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!"

"God" refers to all three put together. So that verse doesn't really contradict what I said.

[JonathanL]

"God" refers to all three put together. So that verse doesn't really contradict what I said.

If it is true that "God" refers to all three persons in the Trinity in the referred passage (and it's not always the case that it does), why does Jesus refer to the Temple as "my Father's house?" (John 2:16)

[tabibito]

Though the man does not live there, yet the house may be his.

Solomon's prayer in 1 Kings 8 where he states "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!" (1 Kings 8:27)

Hyperbole is not unknown in Old Testament records of prayer.

[seer]

I would be interest in what passages of scripture you're using on which to base that belief.

Christ does say that no one has seen His "form." Suggesting that God does have form, and a form would be localized. Though His power and reach would still be universal.

[Adrift]

Wait, what? Are Christians in this thread actually suggesting that God the Father is not omnipresent? That He is literally sitting "somewhere," or "someplace?"

[Cow Poke]

Wait, what? Are Christians in this thread actually suggesting that God the Father is not omnipresent? That He is literally sitting "somewhere," or "someplace?"

Not me! And, if I may add just a bit of comic relief, not Father Sarducci, either! In explaining his 5 Minute University, he reveals his Theology Class - God is Everywhere.

[seer]

Wait, what? Are Christians in this thread actually suggesting that God the Father is not omnipresent? That He is literally sitting "somewhere," or "someplace?"

I don't think it is either or. God could be local but His power, knowledge and reach are omnipresent.

[tabibito]

Where does the Lord's prayer claim that the Father is?

[Cow Poke]

Where does the Lord's prayer claim that the Father is?

That's His base of operations. He is not confined there.

[tabibito]

Scripture states that God is (though I'm not sure that the word is actually used) omnipresent, but that would be true even if the Father never "set foot out of heaven," provided that at least one member of the Trinity did.
So, is there a scripture somewhere that shows the Father to not be in heaven at some given time, or that he is present on Earth (or someplace else) even while he is in heaven?

Note that here I am only checking the Biblical assertions, not arguing that the Father is only present in heaven. Does scripture itself teach that the Father is omnipresent, whether occasionally or permanently?

[Cow Poke]

Scripture states that God is (though I'm not sure that the word is actually used) omnipresent, but that would be true even if the Father never "set foot out of heaven," provided that at least one member of the Trinity did.
So, is there a scripture somewhere that shows the Father to not be in heaven at some given time, or that he is present on Earth (or someplace else) even while he is in heaven?

Note that here I am only checking the Biblical assertions, not arguing that the Father is only present in heaven. Does scripture itself teach that the Father is omnipresent, whether occasionally or permanently?

I think we're trying to hard to compartmentalize God. God, through His Spirit, is....

Psalm 139:7-10 says, "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast."

[tabibito]

Yup - The Holy Spirit, and therefore God, is omnipresent beyond all doubt. Scripture is less certain about Christ, except as situational (where believers are gathered) + Jesus stating that if he does not return to the Father (Fathers location elsewhere being thereby asserted) the Holy Spirit will not come. Scripture itself doesn't seem to locate the Father as anywhere but heaven.