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A Civil Abortion Discussion

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  • #31
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Battle lines only remain "fixed" if we permit them to be "fixed." As my Dad used to day, "it takes two to tango."

    Change the discussion, and you will change the battle lines.
    If all discussions about this revert back to "Planned Parenthood" as the de facto face of "choice", it seems quite reasonable to assume that the discussion isn't actually about a woman's right to choose, but a woman's right to choose abortion.

    May I please draw your attention to the question I asked in my post? "Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?"

    Is there somebody else with whom to have this discussion who is, perhaps, more "pro choice" and less "pro abortion"?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Actually - that's a good catch. So the modified starting place is:

      1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
      2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
      3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
      Might I politely suggest that 2) is no longer in sync with 1)?
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by guacamole View Post
        Great. End of thread. Bye now.
        The one person who seemed to get it...
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          If you agree with my three points...the logical conclusion is that either side continuing in the effort to get the other side to accept their definition of "when a human person begins" will have zero effect on the abortion situation.
          That's the reality of the situation. And unfortunately why we are now in the situation we are in with the recent spate of laws from New York, Virginia, Alabama, Georgia, etc. Convincing the "other side", since it is utterly fruitless as-is as you observe, then the only legitimate alternative is to get the court to overturn it. RvW is an awfully reasoned decision. Even some on the left agree that the "right to privacy" crafted by that court is nowhere in the Constitution.

          Would you agree that is a natural, logical conclusion from those three points?
          Yes. But moving or reframing the problem isn't the only course of action. Hence the current Supreme Court makeup that a majority of us on the right voted for. Although, I do not personally think Roberts would vote to overturn RvW TBH...
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            The one person who seemed to get it...
            I disagree. This has been quite polite thus far, especially compared to the usual threads...
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              If all discussions about this revert back to "Planned Parenthood" as the de facto face of "choice", it seems quite reasonable to assume that the discussion isn't actually about a woman's right to choose, but a woman's right to choose abortion.
              Yes - many on the left have chosen that "voice" and many on the left see it as a battle for a woman to continue to be able to "choose abortion." That's a natural consequence of not seeing the fetus as a human person until "point X." Going back to the "PP" argument is just returning to "let's talk about when a human life begins."

              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              May I please draw your attention to the question I asked in my post? "Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?"
              Not that I know of.

              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Is there somebody else with whom to have this discussion who is, perhaps, more "pro choice" and less "pro abortion"?
              Yes. PP is one organization. Find people who are not necessarily PP associated - or people within PP who are not rabid. They exist.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Might I politely suggest that 2) is no longer in sync with 1)?
                Yes. Also a good catch. So the modified modified starting place is:

                1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
                2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when a human person begins for the last 50 years.
                3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

                I'm curious to know if you agree with these three observations? If not - which ones do you think are false?
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Yes. PP is one organization.
                  It is one organization that is routinely touted as the "go to" for women's rights.

                  Find people who are not necessarily PP associated - or people within PP who are not rabid. They exist.
                  Could you please provide one example making their voice heard in the current climate?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    The one person who seemed to get it...
                    I'm not leaving. I just hope that if people believe that they won without question, then they can go back to talking about something else and we can carry on.
                    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                    Save me, save me"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Yes. Also a good catch. So the modified modified starting place is:

                      1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
                      2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when a human person begins for the last 50 years.
                      3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

                      I'm curious to know if you agree with these three observations? If not - which ones do you think are false?
                      I have no argument with the statements, but, with all due respect, the same could have been said many years ago with regards to...

                      1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on whether the earth is flat or round.
                      2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on whether the earth is flat or round for the last 50 years.
                      3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

                      What changed that debate? Science.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        The one person who seemed to get it...
                        It appears, contrary to your request for civil discourse, he was being rather....
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I have no argument with the statements, but, with all due respect, the same could have been said many years ago with regards to...

                          1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on whether the earth is flat or round.
                          2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on whether the earth is flat or round for the last 50 years.
                          3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

                          What changed that debate? Science.
                          So understanding that the debate hasn't shifted, and that the SCOTUS may/may not turn over Roe, what else can we do to save lives?
                          "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                          Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                          Save me, save me"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            That's the reality of the situation. And unfortunately why we are now in the situation we are in with the recent spate of laws from New York, Virginia, Alabama, Georgia, etc. Convincing the "other side", since it is utterly fruitless as-is as you observe, then the only legitimate alternative is to get the court to overturn it. RvW is an awfully reasoned decision. Even some on the left agree that the "right to privacy" crafted by that court is nowhere in the Constitution.
                            I'm going to suggest that overturning Roe vs. Wade will not end the battle - it will only escalate it. Women outnumber men in the U.S., and the vast majority of them have grown up under Roe v. Wade. If that perceived "right" is overturned, there will be a massive outcry from that population, and all of the men that support them. Liberalism is gaining ground in the U.S., and the statistics show that liberals/democrats are outnumbering conservatives/republicans by significant numbers, and in virtually every demographic. A polarizing issue lie this will rally the left and very likely sweep them into power. Trump's role as president would just be the frosting on the cake. Then SCOTUS can be packed, and a new Roe v. Wade put in place.

                            I submit that this issue is not going to be resolved by laws. It pits the right of a person to choose their own medical course against the right of the fetus to live. But the fetus is largely invisible and doesn't vote. The women are VERY visible and do.

                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            Yes. But moving or reframing the problem isn't the only course of action. Hence the current Supreme Court makeup that a majority of us on the right voted for. Although, I do not personally think Roberts would vote to overturn RvW TBH...
                            So it seems to follow - overturn or not overturn - the battle will rage on - without resolution.

                            If my three points are accurate, then continuing to frame this as "when does a human person begin" will never get us to "minimum abortions." Would you agree?
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              It appears, contrary to your request for civil discourse, he was being rather....
                              ...exasperated by people who refuse to budge to consider anything else to be done?
                              "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                              Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                              Save me, save me"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Do you agree with my first three observations?

                                To repeat:

                                1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
                                2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
                                3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
                                I disagree with the first two since the issue isn't about when life starts or when the baby becomes a person in the womb.
                                Number 1 -- the debate is whether government can instigate programs to negatively affect the society's views.
                                Number 2 is a corollary so that the political interests will not be affected by views on when life begins. It seems that many are not interested in the time that life starts. This only helps in the court decisions to the extent the decisions determine whether a baby is a person yet.

                                Comment

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