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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    A Civil Abortion Discussion

    OK - I'm going to give this a shot - in a new thread with a clean start. My request, if you are going to join this discussion, is that it be kept civil and respectful. That means no name calling, no insults, and no taunting emojis. I'd also like to request that people leave the hyperbolic language that both sides tend to use about this topic "at the door." No "Big Abortion," no "abortion mills," no accusations of misogyny or religious fanaticism.

    I have a fairly simple premise: the existing "war" between the two sides of the abortion debate is unresolvable, so it is pointless to continue engaging in it. A different paradigm needs to be considered. That is based on the following:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when life begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

    If those three statements are true, then continuing a battle in which the goal is to align those views so as to end abortions is doomed to fail.
    Ergo - if we cannot end abortions by aligning views on when life begins, we need to figure out another way to end abortions.

    Let's start there.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. Amen guacamole, oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
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    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Here's a modest start to reduce some abortions and to help more people do the right thing. Let's start pushing for a nationwide initiative to reduce the cost of adoptions:

    From Planning for Adoption: Knowing the Costs and Resources.

    Private agency adoptions conducted outside the public
    child welfare system vary widely in costs based on the
    agency used and the individual adoption circumstances
    but may range from $20,000 to $45,000. Overall costs may
    include the home study, court and legal fees, preadoption
    and postadoption counseling for birth parents, birth
    parent medical and legal expenses, adoptive parent
    preparation and training, social work services needed to
    match a child with a prospective family, interim care for a
    child, and postplacement supervision until the adoption is
    finalized.


    Additionally, making the system run a bit smoother, with fewer pauses and delays, might save some lives.

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

  4. Amen oxmixmudd, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    Here's a modest start to reduce some abortions and to help more people do the right thing. Let's start pushing for a nationwide initiative to reduce the cost of adoptions:

    From Planning for Adoption: Knowing the Costs and Resources.

    Private agency adoptions conducted outside the public
    child welfare system vary widely in costs based on the
    agency used and the individual adoption circumstances
    but may range from $20,000 to $45,000. Overall costs may
    include the home study, court and legal fees, preadoption
    and postadoption counseling for birth parents, birth
    parent medical and legal expenses, adoptive parent
    preparation and training, social work services needed to
    match a child with a prospective family, interim care for a
    child, and postplacement supervision until the adoption is
    finalized.


    Additionally, making the system run a bit smoother, with fewer pauses and delays, might save some lives.

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    I couldn't agree more. There is a adoption tax credit ($14,080) but it only applies to those who have a tax burden and only hits once in the year when the adoption finalizes. Since finalizing an adoption can take months and sometimes years, it means the cost burden is borne completely by the adopting couple until that time of finalization. Those who have a tax burden below this number cannot access the full credit (i.e., your credit is your tax burden or $14,080, whichever is less)

    If we can subsidize industries like oil and coal and renewables, why not subsidize the adoption industry so the cost per adoption is significantly lowered?

    This is an example of an approach that does not require us to get into the "when does life begin" muck - and instead looks for practical solutions both sides can agree on.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    Here's a modest start to reduce some abortions and to help more people do the right thing. Let's start pushing for a nationwide initiative to reduce the cost of adoptions:

    From Planning for Adoption: Knowing the Costs and Resources.

    Private agency adoptions conducted outside the public
    child welfare system vary widely in costs based on the
    agency used and the individual adoption circumstances
    but may range from $20,000 to $45,000. Overall costs may
    include the home study, court and legal fees, preadoption
    and postadoption counseling for birth parents, birth
    parent medical and legal expenses, adoptive parent
    preparation and training, social work services needed to
    match a child with a prospective family, interim care for a
    child, and postplacement supervision until the adoption is
    finalized.


    Additionally, making the system run a bit smoother, with fewer pauses and delays, might save some lives.

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    Our local pregnancy center is very much into adoption referrals, and we have our own pro bono family practice attorney. She is incredibly frustrated with how a "slam dunk" adoption can be complicated by the courts. A case where the girl is willing to give up her baby, nobody is contesting, the adopting parents are a fine upstanding couple -- no conceivable reason not to proceed. In our case, it's often Child Protective Services that gets involved, and it's like they forget that their obligation is to THE CHILD, not the process.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Ergo - if we cannot end abortions by aligning views on when life begins, we need to figure out another way to end abortions.
    And that other way is...?

    The problem is that any measure that reduces the desirability of abortion has been and will be staunchly opposed by pro-abortionists. Even something as simple, routine, and medically defensible as requiring women to get an ultrasound before an abortion is decried by pro-abortionists because they're afraid it humanizes the baby.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    And that other way is...?
    First, do you agree with the three points made?

    Second, I don't have an answer to that question. The entire point is that we need to bring both sides together to explore strategies that will significantly reduce abortions that BOTH sides can agree on, rather than devoting efforts to a debate that cannot be resolved. My argument is a meta argument about how we approach the issue - not a claim that I have the solution. Indeed, I don't think there is "a solution." I think the solution will be a combination of things that will drive society to a place where abortion is seen as "undesirable" and "uncool."

    Guaca is demonstrating exactly the kind of thinking we should be using, but I'll add another thought: the two sides have become so reactive, at this point, that I suspect the only way any of this is going to pass muster for either side is if it is coming from a group that clearly represents the interests and concerns of both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The problem is that any measure that reduces the desirability of abortion has been and will be staunchly opposed by pro-abortionists. Even something as simple, routine, and medically defensible as requiring women to get an ultrasound before an abortion is decried by pro-abortionists because they're afraid it humanizes the baby.
    MM, one of the primary arguments of the other side is "a woman has the right to make decisions about their own medical treatment." You cannot rationally expect that an approach that requires a woman to be subjected to a particular medical procedure is going to be welcomed with open arms. The point is to find strategies, like the ones proposed by Guaca, that can be enthusiastically embraced by both sides. Guaca's first suggestion does not address abortion per se, but it does at least look beefing up the resources available for adoption. His second does directly address abortion.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-16-2019 at 06:33 AM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    The entire point is that we need to bring both sides together to explore strategies that will significantly reduce abortions that BOTH sides can agree on...
    Except there is no common ground. Pro-abortionists don't see abortion as something that needs to be mitigated. Deliver, adopt, abort... it's all the same to them.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Except there is no common ground. Pro-abortionists don't see abortion as something that needs to be mitigated. Deliver, adopt, abort... it's all the same to them.
    The assumption that "the other side" is intransigent and acting in bad faith is part of the problem. You make this assumption of them; they make it of you. It is the road to "no progress" and another 50 years of fruitless war. Making progress means setting aside that mindset, and giving "the other side" the benefit of the doubt. Both sides need to be willing to do that.

    As for "no common ground." I disagree. For example, I cannot imagine a single pro-choicer not getting behind a plan to subsidize adoptions, or initiate a national campaign of "talking about sex to kids."

    Would you support such initiatives?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As for "no common ground." I disagree. For example, I cannot imagine a single pro-choicer not getting behind a plan to subsidize adoptions, or initiate a national campaign of "talking about sex to kids."
    Perhaps a large part of the problem is that "one side" has allowed - even championed - Planned Parenthood to be the face of "choice", and there appears to be no effort on their part for neutrality on the "choice".

    As long as one side recognizes Planned Parenthood as "the authority" on "choice", the battle lines remain fixed.

    Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    The assumption that "the other side" is intransigent and acting in bad faith is part of the problem. You make this assumption of them; they make it of you. It is the road to "no progress" and another 50 years of fruitless war. Making progress means setting aside that mindset, and giving "the other side" the benefit of the doubt. Both sides need to be willing to do that.

    As for "no common ground." I disagree. For example, I cannot imagine a single pro-choicer not getting behind a plan to subsidize adoptions, or initiate a national campaign of "talking about sex to kids."

    Would you support such initiatives?
    I think any "solution" that ignores the elephant in the room -- that abortion always terminates a human life -- is going to have limited and temporary success.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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