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Thread: A Civil Abortion Discussion

  1. #31
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Battle lines only remain "fixed" if we permit them to be "fixed." As my Dad used to day, "it takes two to tango."

    Change the discussion, and you will change the battle lines.
    If all discussions about this revert back to "Planned Parenthood" as the de facto face of "choice", it seems quite reasonable to assume that the discussion isn't actually about a woman's right to choose, but a woman's right to choose abortion.

    May I please draw your attention to the question I asked in my post? "Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?"

    Is there somebody else with whom to have this discussion who is, perhaps, more "pro choice" and less "pro abortion"?
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
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  2. #32
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually - that's a good catch. So the modified starting place is:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
    Might I politely suggest that 2) is no longer in sync with 1)?
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  3. #33
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    Great. End of thread. Bye now.
    The one person who seemed to get it...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #34
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    If you agree with my three points...the logical conclusion is that either side continuing in the effort to get the other side to accept their definition of "when a human person begins" will have zero effect on the abortion situation.
    That's the reality of the situation. And unfortunately why we are now in the situation we are in with the recent spate of laws from New York, Virginia, Alabama, Georgia, etc. Convincing the "other side", since it is utterly fruitless as-is as you observe, then the only legitimate alternative is to get the court to overturn it. RvW is an awfully reasoned decision. Even some on the left agree that the "right to privacy" crafted by that court is nowhere in the Constitution.

    Would you agree that is a natural, logical conclusion from those three points?
    Yes. But moving or reframing the problem isn't the only course of action. Hence the current Supreme Court makeup that a majority of us on the right voted for. Although, I do not personally think Roberts would vote to overturn RvW TBH...


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

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  5. #35
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    The one person who seemed to get it...
    I disagree. This has been quite polite thus far, especially compared to the usual threads...


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  6. Amen Cow Poke, Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  7. #36
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    If all discussions about this revert back to "Planned Parenthood" as the de facto face of "choice", it seems quite reasonable to assume that the discussion isn't actually about a woman's right to choose, but a woman's right to choose abortion.
    Yes - many on the left have chosen that "voice" and many on the left see it as a battle for a woman to continue to be able to "choose abortion." That's a natural consequence of not seeing the fetus as a human person until "point X." Going back to the "PP" argument is just returning to "let's talk about when a human life begins."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    May I please draw your attention to the question I asked in my post? "Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?"
    Not that I know of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Is there somebody else with whom to have this discussion who is, perhaps, more "pro choice" and less "pro abortion"?
    Yes. PP is one organization. Find people who are not necessarily PP associated - or people within PP who are not rabid. They exist.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #37
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Might I politely suggest that 2) is no longer in sync with 1)?
    Yes. Also a good catch. So the modified modified starting place is:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when a human person begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

    I'm curious to know if you agree with these three observations? If not - which ones do you think are false?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #38
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yes. PP is one organization.
    It is one organization that is routinely touted as the "go to" for women's rights.

    Find people who are not necessarily PP associated - or people within PP who are not rabid. They exist.
    Could you please provide one example making their voice heard in the current climate?
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

  10. #39
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    The one person who seemed to get it...
    I'm not leaving. I just hope that if people believe that they won without question, then they can go back to talking about something else and we can carry on.
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

  11. #40
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Yes. Also a good catch. So the modified modified starting place is:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when a human person begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

    I'm curious to know if you agree with these three observations? If not - which ones do you think are false?
    I have no argument with the statements, but, with all due respect, the same could have been said many years ago with regards to...

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on whether the earth is flat or round.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on whether the earth is flat or round for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

    What changed that debate? Science.
    I have called you my friends.... Jesus
    Jn 15:15

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