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Thread: A Civil Abortion Discussion

  1. #51
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I don't understand why you (and Carpe, if that's his argument) don't get that the many pro-life pregnancy centers around the country are, indeed, already saving lives, are actively referring for adoptions, are assisting in the expense of those adoptions, are providing free prenatal care, encouragement, support.... along with "women's health care" like mammograms that are not provided by the de facto go-to for the "choice" side.
    I believe I already indicated that that was a good start. Is that all we can do? Can we do more to save lives? Maybe it isn't that I don't get what pro-life pregnancy centers are doing, but that I believe more could be done?
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

  2. #52
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I don't understand why you (and Carpe, if that's his argument) don't get that the many pro-life pregnancy centers around the country are, indeed, already saving lives, are actively referring for adoptions, are assisting in the expense of those adoptions, are providing free prenatal care, encouragement, support.... along with "women's health care" like mammograms that are not provided by the de facto go-to for the "choice" side.
    I cannot speak for Guaca, but I can assure you that I DO get it. And the work of those places is vital and should not stop. Yet, despite those efforts, there were likely over 500,000 abortions performed in the U.S. alone last year (last year we have numbers for was over 630K). So the question is, "what else can we do?"

    I hesitate to use an analogy, but I'll give it a go. You're in a leaking boat, and you have everyone willing/able to plug holes plugging holes as fast as they can (the crisis pregnancy centers). Despite all of that plugging, new holes continue to form and the "pluggers" simply cannot keep up. In that situation, would it not be wise to ask yourself, "OK, what else can we do that might change this situation?"

    No one is diminishing the efforts of the pluggers. No one is saying they should stop. But the problem needs a systemic solution(s).
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #53
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No - it didn't. You will note that the flat-earthers are still out there and science is not convincing them. It most likely never will. So what do we do? We ignore them, because their POV has essentially no impact on day-to-day life for the rest of us.
    And what impact do they have on society, Carpe? Who takes them seriously? For all practical purposes, that debate is over.

    I suggest we do not have that option with abortion, because the consequences of "do nothing" is that kids continue to die.
    And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, many of us are "doing something" besides debating.

    So if you agree with my three statements, would you also agree that the logical conclusion from those three statements is:
    I didn't agree. (smiley face purposely omitted) I opted not to argue.

    "Continuing to attempt to reduce abortion to any significant degree by "arguing the science" and "convincing the other side about when life begins" is an exercise is futility. It is essentially doomed to fail."
    How can you say that, when time after time we witness a woman or girl looking at their sonogram and, finally realizing "it" is not just a blob of cells, it's "my baby!" The debate can rage on "out there", but in the privacy of the clinic, over and over we see science and technology actually saving lives.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  4. #54
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Can you offer an explanation as to why "no such organization" exists on the choice side? What is your opinion as to why Planned Parenthood is allowed to be the de facto spokesorganization for women's health?
    CP - the kind of organization I am talking about cannot "exist on the choice side" or "exist on the life side." The whole idea is to consider how to bring about an organization that is NOT polarized to the "choice" or "life" sides, and instead respects the concerns of both and looks for solutions that can address the concerns of both.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #55
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    I believe I already indicated that that was a good start. Is that all we can do? Can we do more to save lives? Maybe it isn't that I don't get what pro-life pregnancy centers are doing, but that I believe more could be done?
    Sheesh - even when I'm being "concise" my posts are still four times as long as yours...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #56
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And what impact do they have on society, Carpe? Who takes them seriously? For all practical purposes, that debate is over.
    As I noted, CP, it is only "over" because it's a non-issue. So science has stopped wasting time trying to convince flat-earthers. Abortion is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, many of us are "doing something" besides debating.
    No one is questioning that - or diminishing its value. I am one of those people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I didn't agree. (smiley face purposely omitted) I opted not to argue.
    So which statement do you disagree with. That is the beginning place of my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    How can you say that, when time after time we witness a woman or girl looking at their sonogram and, finally realizing "it" is not just a blob of cells, it's "my baby!" The debate can rage on "out there", but in the privacy of the clinic, over and over we see science and technology actually saving lives.
    CP - you continue to think on the micro-level: one person at a time. You are "plugging holes." That is an important and valuable task. It won't stop the ship from sinking.

    As to how I can say that, the statement is a logical conclusion of my three starting observations. If you don't agree with those, then you won't agree with the conclusion. So we need to back up and look at the three statements. Which do you disagree with?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  7. #57
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    I disagree. This has been quite polite thus far, especially compared to the usual threads...
    Good point. I stand corrected.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #58
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I cannot speak for Guaca, but I can assure you that I DO get it. And the work of those places is vital and should not stop. Yet, despite those efforts, there were likely over 500,000 abortions performed in the U.S. alone last year (last year we have numbers for was over 630K). So the question is, "what else can we do?"
    Right off the top of my head...

    Less pro-abortion "sex education" in our public schools, particularly at young ages.
    Less ridicule and assault on the issue of abstinence.
    Less framing of the sex discussion with the mentality of "since you're going to do it anyway"...
    A much more balanced approach to "if you get pregnant" that does not have Planned Parenthood as the 'solution'.

    I hesitate to use an analogy,
    In all honesty and sincerity - you should have tried harder to resist.

    but I'll give it a go. You're in a leaking boat, and you have everyone willing/able to plug holes plugging holes as fast as they can (the crisis pregnancy centers). Despite all of that plugging, new holes continue to form and the "pluggers" simply cannot keep up. In that situation, would it not be wise to ask yourself, "OK, what else can we do that might change this situation?"

    No one is diminishing the efforts of the pluggers. No one is saying they should stop. But the problem needs a systemic solution(s).
    In your analogy, what's making the new holes?

    (and forgive me for having a jovial thought "we're gonna need a bigger boat" (smiling emoji omitted))
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  9. #59
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    That's the reality of the situation. And unfortunately why we are now in the situation we are in with the recent spate of laws from New York, Virginia, Alabama, Georgia, etc..
    I think that a good case could be made that the heartbeat laws are in direct response to what happened in New York where abortion was legalized right up to the moment of conception and was wildly celebrated by advocates including lighting up bridges and buildings bright pink to commemorate it.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  10. Amen Bill the Cat, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  11. #60
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    CP - the kind of organization I am talking about cannot "exist on the choice side" or "exist on the life side." The whole idea is to consider how to bring about an organization that is NOT polarized to the "choice" or "life" sides, and instead respects the concerns of both and looks for solutions that can address the concerns of both.
    OK, so honest questions...

    a) where would this organization get funding for advertising?
    b) How do you think they'd be seen by the already existing de facto spokesorganization for abortion?
    c) How do you think the left, in general, would respond to anything weaker than absolute freedom to abort?
    d) How do you think the MSM would respond?
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

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