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Thread: A Civil Abortion Discussion

  1. #11
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Except there is no common ground. Pro-abortionists don't see abortion as something that needs to be mitigated. Deliver, adopt, abort... it's all the same to them.
    The assumption that "the other side" is intransigent and acting in bad faith is part of the problem. You make this assumption of them; they make it of you. It is the road to "no progress" and another 50 years of fruitless war. Making progress means setting aside that mindset, and giving "the other side" the benefit of the doubt. Both sides need to be willing to do that.

    As for "no common ground." I disagree. For example, I cannot imagine a single pro-choicer not getting behind a plan to subsidize adoptions, or initiate a national campaign of "talking about sex to kids."

    Would you support such initiatives?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

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  2. #12
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As for "no common ground." I disagree. For example, I cannot imagine a single pro-choicer not getting behind a plan to subsidize adoptions, or initiate a national campaign of "talking about sex to kids."
    Perhaps a large part of the problem is that "one side" has allowed - even championed - Planned Parenthood to be the face of "choice", and there appears to be no effort on their part for neutrality on the "choice".

    As long as one side recognizes Planned Parenthood as "the authority" on "choice", the battle lines remain fixed.

    Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  3. #13
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when life begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
    This just isn't true. Like RvW, the current debate isn't when "life begins", it's when that life becomes a "person". You need to modify your argument to reflect that.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  4. Amen Mountain Man, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  5. #14
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    The assumption that "the other side" is intransigent and acting in bad faith is part of the problem. You make this assumption of them; they make it of you. It is the road to "no progress" and another 50 years of fruitless war. Making progress means setting aside that mindset, and giving "the other side" the benefit of the doubt. Both sides need to be willing to do that.

    As for "no common ground." I disagree. For example, I cannot imagine a single pro-choicer not getting behind a plan to subsidize adoptions, or initiate a national campaign of "talking about sex to kids."

    Would you support such initiatives?
    I think any "solution" that ignores the elephant in the room -- that abortion always terminates a human life -- is going to have limited and temporary success.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. #15
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    This just isn't true. Like RvW, the current debate isn't when "life begins", it's when that life becomes a "person". You need to modify your argument to reflect that.
    Good catch.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    Here's a modest start to reduce some abortions and to help more people do the right thing. Let's start pushing for a nationwide initiative to reduce the cost of adoptions:

    From Planning for Adoption: Knowing the Costs and Resources.

    Private agency adoptions conducted outside the public
    child welfare system vary widely in costs based on the
    agency used and the individual adoption circumstances
    but may range from $20,000 to $45,000. Overall costs may
    include the home study, court and legal fees, preadoption
    and postadoption counseling for birth parents, birth
    parent medical and legal expenses, adoptive parent
    preparation and training, social work services needed to
    match a child with a prospective family, interim care for a
    child, and postplacement supervision until the adoption is
    finalized.


    Additionally, making the system run a bit smoother, with fewer pauses and delays, might save some lives.

    fwiw,
    guacamole
    Our local pregnancy center is very much into adoption referrals, and we have our own pro bono family practice attorney. She is incredibly frustrated with how a "slam dunk" adoption can be complicated by the courts. A case where the girl is willing to give up her baby, nobody is contesting, the adopting parents are a fine upstanding couple -- no conceivable reason not to proceed. In our case, it's often Child Protective Services that gets involved, and it's like they forget that their obligation is to THE CHILD, not the process.
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  8. #17
    tWebber
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    The person getting an abortion isn't thinking on the debate when life begins. That issue was likely answered in school by the pro-abortion tone.

    The way to teach (at the last moment) that you have a person being aborted is through the sonogram.

    How do we get past the socio-political motives of people who are most interested in the political gains and societal changes obtained by promotion of abortion? There may be a small number of people who are concerned about the starting point of life, but mostly the pro-abortion is about sacrificing a baby for promotion of social change.
    Last edited by mikewhitney; 05-16-2019 at 08:07 AM.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Access to better medical care has resulted in the lowest rates of unintended pregnancies and abortions since the 1970's. If pro-lifers are truly concerned about the abortion rate they should concern themselves with womens access to medical care such as planned parenthood.
    How does access to medical care reduce abortions? The pregnancy doesn't start at the medical care facilities.

  10. Amen QuantaFille amen'd this post.
  11. #19
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    In light of your statement here, Carpe...

    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    OK - I'm going to give this a shot - in a new thread with a clean start. My request, if you are going to join this discussion, is that it be kept civil and respectful. That means no name calling, no insults, and no taunting emojis. I'd also like to request that people leave the hyperbolic language that both sides tend to use about this topic "at the door." No "Big Abortion," no "abortion mills," no accusations of misogyny or religious fanaticism.
    I'll politely and humbly offer that this statement...

    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    If pro-lifers are truly concerned about the abortion rate they should concern themselves with womens access to medical care such as planned parenthood.
    ...is unnecessarily argumentative and insulting. Many of us "pro-lifers" are, indeed, very much involved in women's health, and the suggestion that the largest abortion provider in the world should be the solution is rather polarizing.
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  12. Amen Mountain Man, Bill the Cat, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  13. #20
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    ITT, pro-lifers complaining that people supporting/getting an abortion don't believe it's a human life.

    We get it. Some of us were hoping to discuss other possible solutions.
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

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