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Thread: A Civil Abortion Discussion

  1. #21
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    ITT, pro-lifers complaining that people supporting/getting an abortion don't believe it's a human life.

    We get it. Some of us were hoping to discuss other possible solutions.
    Unfortunately, any "solution" that ignore the obvious will always be one-sided at best simply because the other side will never agree with the premise that there's a problem to be solved.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. Amen Cerebrum123, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Perhaps a large part of the problem is that "one side" has allowed - even championed - Planned Parenthood to be the face of "choice", and there appears to be no effort on their part for neutrality on the "choice".

    As long as one side recognizes Planned Parenthood as "the authority" on "choice", the battle lines remain fixed.

    Am I overlooking another major entity or force for the "choice" side that is less "pro abortion"?
    Battle lines only remain "fixed" if we permit them to be "fixed." As my Dad used to day, "it takes two to tango."

    Change the discussion, and you will change the battle lines.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #23
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    This just isn't true. Like RvW, the current debate isn't when "life begins", it's when that life becomes a "person". You need to modify your argument to reflect that.
    Actually - that's a good catch. So the modified starting place is:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #24
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Battle lines only remain "fixed" if we permit them to be "fixed." As my Dad used to day, "it takes two to tango."

    Change the discussion, and you will change the battle lines.
    But how does one move from a fixed position that the baby is a person, and that any discussion of abortion MUST start with that premise? Do we just concede that in some cases it isn't? That's simply not tenable.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  6. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  7. #25
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I think any "solution" that ignores the elephant in the room -- that abortion always terminates a human life -- is going to have limited and temporary success.
    You have not said - do you agree with the three points:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #26
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    The person getting an abortion isn't thinking on the debate when life begins. That issue was likely answered in school by the pro-abortion tone.

    The way to teach (at the last moment) that you have a person being aborted is through the sonogram.

    How do we get past the socio-political motives of people who are most interested in the political gains and societal changes obtained by promotion of abortion? There may be a small number of people who are concerned about the starting point of life, but mostly the pro-abortion is about sacrificing a baby for promotion of social change.
    Do you agree with my first three observations?

    To repeat:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when life begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #27
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    In light of your statement here, Carpe...

    I'll politely and humbly offer that this statement...

    ...is unnecessarily argumentative and insulting. Many of us "pro-lifers" are, indeed, very much involved in women's health, and the suggestion that the largest abortion provider in the world should be the solution is rather polarizing.
    OK - I can set the table, and ask that people refrain from emojis and taunts - and leave hyperbolic language at the door. Getting into prohibiting people from making statements about things that should happen, whether or not I agree with them, is more "politically correct police" than I want to get.

    Yes - I wish people would stand back from the battle long enough to look at the meta issue - but that is almost impossible to do. Post after post, people simply seem to want to get back into the fray and start flailing away with the same kinds of arguments that have been failing now for 50+ years - on both sides. I'm trying to get people to step back, even if for a second, and see the futility of that energy use, and ask themselves, "can we approach this differently?"

    In other words - I'm not trying to have a discussion about abortion itself. I'm trying to have a discussion about how we approach the abortion issue - how we engage in the discussion.

    Maybe my thread title is misleading?Can you change it to "A Civil Discussion about the "Great Abortion War" ?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #28
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Unfortunately, any "solution" that ignore the obvious will always be one-sided at best simply because the other side will never agree with the premise that there's a problem to be solved.
    Then redefine the problem.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  11. #29
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    But how does one move from a fixed position that the baby is a person, and that any discussion of abortion MUST start with that premise? Do we just concede that in some cases it isn't? That's simply not tenable.
    If you agree with my three points...the logical conclusion is that either side continuing in the effort to get the other side to accept their definition of "when a human person begins" will have zero effect on the abortion situation.

    Would you agree that is a natural, logical conclusion from those three points?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  12. #30
    tWebber guacamole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Unfortunately, any "solution" that ignore the obvious will always be one-sided at best simply because the other side will never agree with the premise that there's a problem to be solved.
    Great. End of thread. Bye now.
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

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