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A Civil Abortion Discussion

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It is one organization that is routinely touted as the "go to" for women's rights.
    Yes - it is.

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Could you please provide one example making their voice heard in the current climate?
    Well, that would require some form of organization that is willing to explore framing the discussion differently. Right now, I know of no such organization. But it is something I am seriously considering be my "retirement" project. Meanwhile, getting one person at a time to consider looking at this differently is what I am spending time on.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by guacamole View Post
      So understanding that the debate hasn't shifted, and that the SCOTUS may/may not turn over Roe, what else can we do to save lives?
      I don't understand why you (and Carpe, if that's his argument) don't get that the many pro-life pregnancy centers around the country are, indeed, already saving lives, are actively referring for adoptions, are assisting in the expense of those adoptions, are providing free prenatal care, encouragement, support.... along with "women's health care" like mammograms that are not provided by the de facto go-to for the "choice" side.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Well, that would require some form of organization that is willing to explore framing the discussion differently. Right now, I know of no such organization. But it is something I am seriously considering be my "retirement" project. Meanwhile, getting one person at a time to consider looking at this differently is what I am spending time on.
        Can you offer an explanation as to why "no such organization" exists on the choice side? What is your opinion as to why Planned Parenthood is allowed to be the de facto spokesorganization for women's health?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I have no argument with the statements, but, with all due respect, the same could have been said many years ago with regards to...

          1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on whether the earth is flat or round.
          2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on whether the earth is flat or round for the last 50 years.
          3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

          What changed that debate? Science.
          No - it didn't. You will note that the flat-earthers are still out there and science is not convincing them. It most likely never will. So what do we do? We ignore them, because their POV has essentially no impact on day-to-day life for the rest of us.

          I suggest we do not have that option with abortion, because the consequences of "do nothing" is that kids continue to die.

          So if you agree with my three statements, would you also agree that the logical conclusion from those three statements is:

          "Continuing to attempt to reduce abortion to any significant degree by "arguing the science" and "convincing the other side about when life begins" is an exercise is futility. It is essentially doomed to fail."
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            I disagree with the first two since the issue isn't about when life starts or when the baby becomes a person in the womb.
            Number 1 -- the debate is whether government can instigate programs to negatively affect the society's views.
            Number 2 is a corollary so that the political interests will not be affected by views on when life begins. It seems that many are not interested in the time that life starts. This only helps in the court decisions to the extent the decisions determine whether a baby is a person yet.
            OK - I have to admit to being confused. You don't think that the core issue between pro-choicers and pro-lifers is the issue of when a unique human person begins to exist?

            And I'm not sure what government-instigated programs you're referring to?
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I don't understand why you (and Carpe, if that's his argument) don't get that the many pro-life pregnancy centers around the country are, indeed, already saving lives, are actively referring for adoptions, are assisting in the expense of those adoptions, are providing free prenatal care, encouragement, support.... along with "women's health care" like mammograms that are not provided by the de facto go-to for the "choice" side.
              I believe I already indicated that that was a good start. Is that all we can do? Can we do more to save lives? Maybe it isn't that I don't get what pro-life pregnancy centers are doing, but that I believe more could be done?
              "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
              Hear my cry, hear my shout,
              Save me, save me"

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I don't understand why you (and Carpe, if that's his argument) don't get that the many pro-life pregnancy centers around the country are, indeed, already saving lives, are actively referring for adoptions, are assisting in the expense of those adoptions, are providing free prenatal care, encouragement, support.... along with "women's health care" like mammograms that are not provided by the de facto go-to for the "choice" side.
                I cannot speak for Guaca, but I can assure you that I DO get it. And the work of those places is vital and should not stop. Yet, despite those efforts, there were likely over 500,000 abortions performed in the U.S. alone last year (last year we have numbers for was over 630K). So the question is, "what else can we do?"

                I hesitate to use an analogy, but I'll give it a go. You're in a leaking boat, and you have everyone willing/able to plug holes plugging holes as fast as they can (the crisis pregnancy centers). Despite all of that plugging, new holes continue to form and the "pluggers" simply cannot keep up. In that situation, would it not be wise to ask yourself, "OK, what else can we do that might change this situation?"

                No one is diminishing the efforts of the pluggers. No one is saying they should stop. But the problem needs a systemic solution(s).
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  No - it didn't. You will note that the flat-earthers are still out there and science is not convincing them. It most likely never will. So what do we do? We ignore them, because their POV has essentially no impact on day-to-day life for the rest of us.
                  And what impact do they have on society, Carpe? Who takes them seriously? For all practical purposes, that debate is over.

                  I suggest we do not have that option with abortion, because the consequences of "do nothing" is that kids continue to die.
                  And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, many of us are "doing something" besides debating.

                  So if you agree with my three statements, would you also agree that the logical conclusion from those three statements is:
                  I didn't agree. (smiley face purposely omitted) I opted not to argue.

                  "Continuing to attempt to reduce abortion to any significant degree by "arguing the science" and "convincing the other side about when life begins" is an exercise is futility. It is essentially doomed to fail."
                  How can you say that, when time after time we witness a woman or girl looking at their sonogram and, finally realizing "it" is not just a blob of cells, it's "my baby!" The debate can rage on "out there", but in the privacy of the clinic, over and over we see science and technology actually saving lives.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Can you offer an explanation as to why "no such organization" exists on the choice side? What is your opinion as to why Planned Parenthood is allowed to be the de facto spokesorganization for women's health?
                    CP - the kind of organization I am talking about cannot "exist on the choice side" or "exist on the life side." The whole idea is to consider how to bring about an organization that is NOT polarized to the "choice" or "life" sides, and instead respects the concerns of both and looks for solutions that can address the concerns of both.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                      I believe I already indicated that that was a good start. Is that all we can do? Can we do more to save lives? Maybe it isn't that I don't get what pro-life pregnancy centers are doing, but that I believe more could be done?
                      Sheesh - even when I'm being "concise" my posts are still four times as long as yours...
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        And what impact do they have on society, Carpe? Who takes them seriously? For all practical purposes, that debate is over.
                        As I noted, CP, it is only "over" because it's a non-issue. So science has stopped wasting time trying to convince flat-earthers. Abortion is not.

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, many of us are "doing something" besides debating.
                        No one is questioning that - or diminishing its value. I am one of those people.

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I didn't agree. (smiley face purposely omitted) I opted not to argue.
                        So which statement do you disagree with. That is the beginning place of my point.

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        How can you say that, when time after time we witness a woman or girl looking at their sonogram and, finally realizing "it" is not just a blob of cells, it's "my baby!" The debate can rage on "out there", but in the privacy of the clinic, over and over we see science and technology actually saving lives.
                        CP - you continue to think on the micro-level: one person at a time. You are "plugging holes." That is an important and valuable task. It won't stop the ship from sinking.

                        As to how I can say that, the statement is a logical conclusion of my three starting observations. If you don't agree with those, then you won't agree with the conclusion. So we need to back up and look at the three statements. Which do you disagree with?
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          I disagree. This has been quite polite thus far, especially compared to the usual threads...
                          Good point. I stand corrected.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I cannot speak for Guaca, but I can assure you that I DO get it. And the work of those places is vital and should not stop. Yet, despite those efforts, there were likely over 500,000 abortions performed in the U.S. alone last year (last year we have numbers for was over 630K). So the question is, "what else can we do?"
                            Right off the top of my head...

                            Less pro-abortion "sex education" in our public schools, particularly at young ages.
                            Less ridicule and assault on the issue of abstinence.
                            Less framing of the sex discussion with the mentality of "since you're going to do it anyway"...
                            A much more balanced approach to "if you get pregnant" that does not have Planned Parenthood as the 'solution'.

                            I hesitate to use an analogy,
                            In all honesty and sincerity - you should have tried harder to resist.

                            but I'll give it a go. You're in a leaking boat, and you have everyone willing/able to plug holes plugging holes as fast as they can (the crisis pregnancy centers). Despite all of that plugging, new holes continue to form and the "pluggers" simply cannot keep up. In that situation, would it not be wise to ask yourself, "OK, what else can we do that might change this situation?"

                            No one is diminishing the efforts of the pluggers. No one is saying they should stop. But the problem needs a systemic solution(s).
                            In your analogy, what's making the new holes?

                            (and forgive me for having a jovial thought "we're gonna need a bigger boat" (smiling emoji omitted))
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              That's the reality of the situation. And unfortunately why we are now in the situation we are in with the recent spate of laws from New York, Virginia, Alabama, Georgia, etc..
                              I think that a good case could be made that the heartbeat laws are in direct response to what happened in New York where abortion was legalized right up to the moment of conception and was wildly celebrated by advocates including lighting up bridges and buildings bright pink to commemorate it.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                CP - the kind of organization I am talking about cannot "exist on the choice side" or "exist on the life side." The whole idea is to consider how to bring about an organization that is NOT polarized to the "choice" or "life" sides, and instead respects the concerns of both and looks for solutions that can address the concerns of both.
                                OK, so honest questions...

                                a) where would this organization get funding for advertising?
                                b) How do you think they'd be seen by the already existing de facto spokesorganization for abortion?
                                c) How do you think the left, in general, would respond to anything weaker than absolute freedom to abort?
                                d) How do you think the MSM would respond?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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