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A Civil Abortion Discussion

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  • This was a solid attempt at discourse. Unfortunately, most people are trying to debate abortion or the utility of trying to save lives. Shaking my head...
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
      This was a solid attempt at discourse. Unfortunately, most people are trying to debate abortion or the utility of trying to save lives. Shaking my head...
      It was more an attempt to solve a problem without actually addressing the problem itself while putting one side of the debate at a significant disadvantage.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        It was more an attempt to solve a problem without actually addressing the problem itself while putting one side of the debate at a significant disadvantage.
        That's the whole frustrating point. No one is arguing that this is the solution to the abortion debate, hence no one is at a significant disadvantage in the abortion debate. It was merely a question of how we can save more lives now. The abortion question is still open.
        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
        Save me, save me"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
          That's the whole frustrating point. No one is arguing that this is the solution to the abortion debate, hence no one is at a significant disadvantage in the abortion debate. It was merely a question of how we can save more lives now. The abortion question is still open.
          Well, like I said, any proposal that tries to avoid stepping on the pro-abortionists toes will, I think, be limited and short-lived at best. Case in point, you mentioned making adoption easier, but then on the other side of the equation, Planned Parenthood as the country's largest provider of and advocate for abortion (and from which it gets the majority of its income) actively discourages adoption.

          As I said, pro-abortionists will happily agree to any compromise that doesn't actually prevent abortion, and that's the problem with the premise of this thread.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Well, like I said, any proposal that tries to avoid stepping on the pro-abortionists toes will, I think, be limited and short-lived at best. Case in point, you mentioned making adoption easier, but then on the other side of the equation, Planned Parenthood as the country's largest provider of and advocate for abortion (and from which it gets the majority of its income) actively discourages adoption.

            As I said, pro-abortionists will happily agree to any compromise that doesn't actually prevent abortion, and that's the problem with the premise of this thread.
            No one was trying to avoid stepping on anyone's toes. Anyone who reads here knows that I am not afraid to step on toes if I feel like I need to. I don't think your article proves anything about active opposition to adoption from Planned Parenthood. I hate having to defend them, but the writer basically looked a bunch of PP brochures and took them to task for not being in the adoption business.

            fwiw,
            guacamole
            "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
            Hear my cry, hear my shout,
            Save me, save me"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              Well, like I said, any proposal that tries to avoid stepping on the pro-abortionists toes will, I think, be limited and short-lived at best. Case in point, you mentioned making adoption easier, but then on the other side of the equation, Planned Parenthood as the country's largest provider of and advocate for abortion (and from which it gets the majority of its income) actively discourages adoption.

              As I said, pro-abortionists will happily agree to any compromise that doesn't actually prevent abortion, and that's the problem with the premise of this thread.
              No one was trying to avoid stepping on anyone's toes. Anyone who reads here knows that I am not afraid to step on toes if I feel like I need to. I don't think your article proves anything about active opposition to adoption from Planned Parenthood. I hate having to defend them, but the writer basically looked a bunch of PP brochures and took them to task for not being in the adoption business.

              fwiw,
              guacamole
              "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
              Hear my cry, hear my shout,
              Save me, save me"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                No one was trying to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.
                That was the premise of carpe's thought experiment. "Can't we all just get along?"

                Unfortunately, the answer, as far as this issue is concerned, is no, we can't. There is no middle ground between good and evil.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                  No one was trying to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.
                  That was the premise of carpe's thought experiment. "Can't we all just get along?"

                  Unfortunately, the answer, as far as this issue is concerned, is no, we can't. There is no middle ground between good and evil.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    That was the premise of carpe's thought experiment. "Can't we all just get along?"

                    Unfortunately, the answer, as far as this issue is concerned, is no, we can't. There is no middle ground between good and evil.
                    Even if it would save lives...
                    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                    Save me, save me"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                      Even if it would save lives...
                      Pretend you like me. Explain how "civil discussion" of this thing will "save lives". That's the main thing Carpe said that I never got.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Pretend you like me. Explain how "civil discussion" of this thing will "save lives". That's the main thing Carpe said that I never got.
                        The point of the discussion was to find policies that, barring a complete reversal of Roe v. Wade, might help save lives, if that is what is important.
                        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                        Save me, save me"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                          The point of the discussion was to find policies that, barring a complete reversal of Roe v. Wade, might help save lives, if that is what is important.
                          So, how is that not one-sided? One side is already committed to saving lives, and the other side is committed to protecting abortion (in many cases) at all costs and through all stages of pregnancy.

                          What 'civil discussion' changes that? And I'm not trying to argue - I'm sincerely puzzled what this exercise was supposed to achieve? What lives will be "saved" beyond those already being saved by the pro-life efforts?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            So, how is that not one-sided?
                            I guess my answer is who cares if it's one-sided if it saves lives.

                            One side is already committed to saving lives,
                            This is when, respectfully, I don't buy it. If, by compromise, you save more lives than you do by not compromising, then, logically, you should compromise if you want to save lives.

                            What 'civil discussion' changes that?
                            The discussion here was largely not between pro-life and pro-choice. The discussion was between different shades of pro-lifers. The "civil" was an instruction to people who routinely engage in personal attacks to leave it out of the thread.

                            And I'm not trying to argue - I'm sincerely puzzled what this exercise was supposed to achieve? What lives will be "saved" beyond those already being saved by the pro-life efforts?
                            The exercise was to brainstorm other ways we could save lives. It's up to us to act on them at the grassroots level if we want to see any action. The lives "saved" are those saved that would be lost if the challenges to Roe fall through.

                            fwiw,
                            guac.
                            "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                            Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                            Save me, save me"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                              Even if it would save lives...
                              I'm all for saving lives; I just don't think we should complacently accept a situation where the abortion industry dictates to us how many lives we're allowed to save, which is the only thing a "compromise" solution would accomplish.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                                The exercise was to brainstorm other ways we could save lives. It's up to us to act on them at the grassroots level if we want to see any action. The lives "saved" are those saved that would be lost if the challenges to Roe fall through.
                                Did it accomplish anything?

                                And, as noted, many of us are already "in the trenches" at the grassroots level, actually saving lives, not just discussing it.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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