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Thread: A Civil Abortion Discussion

  1. #71
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    ...So we need to back up and look at the three statements. Which do you disagree with?
    So, my good friend firstfloor (or whoever hijacked his account) makes a rare important point:

    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    I donít think thatís where the problem is. My feeling is that the debatable issues are around value and who is allowed to determine value. A lot of contradictory nonsense is spoken about the value of human lives.
    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when a human person begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years


    If it's truly about "when a human person begins", then there should be some point in the development of the unborn baby at which the "pro choice" crowd would concede - "yeah, THAT's going too far".

    From my perspective, the point has never been about "when a person begins" - that's just a tool in demonstrating that, to the "pro choice" side, it doesn't really matter. Planned Parenthood even fights limitations on abortion up to 21 weeks.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  2. #72
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Right off the top of my head...

    Less pro-abortion "sex education" in our public schools, particularly at young ages.
    Less ridicule and assault on the issue of abstinence.
    Less framing of the sex discussion with the mentality of "since you're going to do it anyway"...
    A much more balanced approach to "if you get pregnant" that does not have Planned Parenthood as the 'solution'.
    Remember, CP, that the goal is to find solutions that will be embraced by BOTH sides...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    In all honesty and sincerity - you should have tried harder to resist.
    There are times I would like to be able to spank you...

    But you'd probably just enjoy it..

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    In your analogy, what's making the new holes?

    (and forgive me for having a jovial thought "we're gonna need a bigger boat" (smiling emoji omitted))
    First- the smiling emoji would have been perfectly appropriate.

    Ahh...NOW you're getting it! What is causing the holes and how can we address it is indeed the question that should be asked. So let's just say, for the sake of argument, the holes are being caused by merpeople who believe, with every fiber of their being, that drilling holes in wooden hulls is the best way to keep ships healthy and extend their lives. For weeks now, as your people keep bailing as fast and hard as they can, you've argued with them, explained the situation, but to no avail. They are convinced they are right, and you are convinced what they are doing is damaging and threatens the lives of everyone on board.

    Would you consider it to be a wise choice to continue arguing with them, or would you look for other solutions?
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-16-2019 at 01:42 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #73
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    I think that a good case could be made that the heartbeat laws are in direct response to what happened in New York where abortion was legalized right up to the moment of conception and was wildly celebrated by advocates including lighting up bridges and buildings bright pink to commemorate it.
    OK - I'm not trying to be disrespectful - but I had to chuckle a bit at this.

    DO we really have a problem with an abortion that happens before conception?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #74
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    OK, so honest questions...

    a) where would this organization get funding for advertising?
    From those who share a commitment to that end. Grassroots, baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    b) How do you think they'd be seen by the already existing de facto spokes organization for abortion?
    That depends on whether or not the organization can maintain a commitment to non-confrontational solution finding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    c) How do you think the left, in general, would respond to anything weaker than absolute freedom to abort?
    At first - most will resist - as most of the right will resist abandoning the "in your face" approach that is commonplace. And before anyone reacts, I realize that this approach is not universal (which is why I said "commonplace"). It is primarily the kind of vitriolic language that is used in advertising, public speeches, rallies, and any place where you basically are not looking another human being in the eyes. Both sides do it.

    But it is hard to fight an organization that is not "fighting," and it can succeed. Ask India.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    d) How do you think the MSM would respond?
    On that one I have no idea. As with individuals, I suspect it would be all over the map, for all media outlets.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #75
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    OK - I'm not trying to be disrespectful - but I had to chuckle a bit at this.

    DO we really have a problem with an abortion that happens before conception?
    I think we have agreement on permitting abortions until the point of conception. There. Progress!

  6. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  7. #76
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guacamole View Post
    Here's another thought: Some research, and thus the common perception on the other side, indicates that women who are denied an abortion face economic insecurity. One such study (I have not idea if it is good or not, but lets grant its finding for the sake of argument) finds that women who do not have access to abortion faces up to four years of economic insecurity following the birth of a child. Here is the abstract. I have not read the study.

    Outcomes of Women Who Receive and Women Who Are Denied Wanted Abortions in the United States

    Objectives. To determine the socioeconomic consequences of receipt versus denial of abortion.

    Methods. Women who presented for abortion just before or after the gestational age limit of 30 abortion facilities across the United States between 2008 and 2010 were recruited and followed for 5 years via semiannual telephone interviews. Using mixed effects models, we evaluated socioeconomic outcomes for 813 women by receipt or denial of abortion care.

    Results. In analyses that adjusted for the few baseline differences, women denied abortions who gave birth had higher odds of poverty 6 months after denial (adjusted odds ratio [AOR] = 3.77; P < .001) than did women who received abortions; women denied abortions were also more likely to be in poverty for 4 years after denial of abortion. Six months after denial of abortion, women were less likely to be employed full time (AOR = 0.37; P = .001) and were more likely to receive public assistance (AOR = 6.26; P < .001) than were women who obtained abortions, differences that remained significant for 4 years.

    Conclusions. Women denied an abortion were more likely than were women who received an abortion to experience economic hardship and insecurity lasting years. Laws that restrict access to abortion may result in worsened economic outcomes for women.


    So are what ways can we decouple pregnancy and economic insecurity in the United States? It might be that we can save lives if we fight against the "penalty" of pregnancy?
    This is a tricky one. The challenge is to decouple them without triggering the law of unintended consequences. Structured incorrectly, you could actually trigger a situation where people are intentionally getting pregnant to get the security that follows - basically a full-on cobra-effect.

    Addressing poverty in general would be important...but that is a whole other can of worms.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  8. #77
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    On that one I have no idea. As with individuals, I suspect it would be all over the map, for all media outlets.
    I'll deal with this one since it's probably the most critical for exposure. The MSM has been pretty consistently loyal to the pro-choice position.

    Any attempt at moderation would be challenged by Planned Parenthood, and I believe the MSM would fall right in line.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  9. #78
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I wonder what other social issues you could apply this to? If we went back in time before the 1960s...

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on whether or not blacks are equal.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on black equality for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years.

    Therefore, we should refrain from opposing racism and segregation and work towards short-lived band-aid "compromises" that don't actually address the problem.


    Or if we go back further...

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on whether or not women should have the right to vote.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on women's suffrage for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years.

    Therefore, we should refrain from opposing denying women the right to vote and work towards short-lived band-aid "compromises" that don't actually address the problem.
    I'm afraid you're not really following the case being made. I have never said that opposing abortion is to stop. If these statements are true:

    1) The current debate/war is rooted in a disagreement on when a human person begins.
    2) There has been essentially zero progress to aligning the opposing views on when a human person begins for the last 50 years.
    3) There is no basis for believing those views will be aligned in the next 50 years

    Then the claim I am making is that "opposing abortion by trying to convince the other side that a human person begins at conception is pointless and fruitless." That is an obvious follow-on. It doesn't mean you stop opposing abortions.

    So in your examples above, if the first three points were true (and I am not convinced they are), the logical conclusion would not be "stop fighting racism" - it would be "fighting racism by trying to convince people that everyone is equal is not going to work."

    Note that this doesn't mean you stop believing everyone is equal. It also doesn't mean that you seek to make that reality happen eventually. It means that an in-your-face argument to prove it to people is simply going to be destined to fail, and other approaches should be considered.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  10. #79
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Remember, CP, that the goal is to find solutions that will be embraced by BOTH sides...
    In the interest of civility, this "Remember, CP...." implies that I actually forgot something. It's nut useful.

    Ahh...NOW you're getting it!
    Again with what could be considered somewhat snarky.

    What is causing the holes and how can we address it is indeed the question that should be asked. So let's just say, for the sake of argument, the holes are being caused by merpeople who believe, with every fiber of their being, that drilling holes in wooden hulls is the best way to keep ships healthy and extend their lives. For weeks now, as your people keep bailing as fast and hard as they can, you've argued with them, explained the situation, but to no avail. They are convinced they are right, and you are convinced what they are doing is damaging and threatens the lives of everyone on board.

    Would you consider it to be a wise choice to continue arguing with them, or would you look for other solutions?
    With all due respect, I think your 'analogy' is getting weaker and weaker. If I saw somebody drilling holes in my boat, I'd give them fair warning, then I'd smack the fire out of them with my oar. I don't think that's really what you want.
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  11. #80
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    So in your examples above, if the first three points were true (and I am not convinced they are), the logical conclusion would not be "stop fighting racism" - it would be "fighting racism by trying to convince people that everyone is equal is not going to work."

    It means that an in-your-face argument to prove it to people is simply going to be destined to fail, and other approaches should be considered.
    So, what was the trigger to ignite the Civil Rights Movement? By polite discussions, analogies and rhetoric? Or by civil disobedience and action.

    civil disobedience.jpg

    (Am I allowed to post pictures?)
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  12. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.

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