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Thread: Origin of life status

  1. #51
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Improbability does not apply to natural laws and processes. Something can be improbable but given billions of years it is likely to happen a number of times. It is more of a juggling act by those that misuse statistics and probability to justify an agenda.
    But we don't have billions of years for life to form, almost immediately (geologically speaking) after conditions were available that support life, we have life.

    The articles cited described the problems that needed to be solve regarding the origins of chirility, and not the probability. Science does not deal in probabilities, because they cannot be reliably determined, except with unscientific assumptions as Behe does.
    Science can deal with probabilities, though.

    Source: Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life

    The origin of life is unsolvable as a scientific problem.

    © Copyright Original Source


    And Hubert Yockey is no friend of Intelligent Design.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #52
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But in this case there is a perfectly good natural explanation, it's when natural explanations fail that we then turn to the supernatural.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Fro natural explanations to fail(?) you wold need a falsifiable theory or hypothesis demonstrating that natural explanations fail, which would mean you would have to falsify the negative, which is impossible.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #53
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But we don't have billions of years for life to form, almost immediately (geologically speaking) after conditions were available that support life, we have life.


    Science can deal with probabilities, though.

    Source: Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life

    The origin of life is unsolvable as a scientific problem.

    © Copyright Original Source


    And Hubert Yockey is no friend of Intelligent Design.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Hubert Yockey is not in the fields related to evolution nore abiogenesis. He is a physicist and works primarily in information theory, and yes despite denials he is an advocate that abiogenesis and evolution cannot come about naturally. Absolutely nothing here in terms of the actual 'positive' falsification of theories not hypothesis concerning the whether abiogenesis nor evolution is possible. The results of his work are not accepted in the fields of biology and genetics related to abiogenesis and evolution.

    His work is also dated and does not reflect the contemporary advances in abiogenesis and evolution.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #54
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Fro natural explanations to fail(?) you wold need a falsifiable theory or hypothesis demonstrating that natural explanations fail, which would mean you would have to falsify the negative, which is impossible.
    All that needs to be shown is that abiogenesis is improbable, no need to show that it is impossible. So then the question becomes, do we know enough of natural processes, to be able to estimate the probability of abiogenesis? Hubert Yockey would say yes, we do, and his arguments would then need to be addressed, specifically.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #55
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Exploring mysteries is fine, I think we know enough about life to be able to estimate a bound on the probability of it forming naturally, and that probability bound is very low.
    So? The anthropic principle and a posteriori probabilities render this moot.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  6. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  7. #56
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, if a natural explanation is improbable, then we are left with supernatural explanations.
    But supernatural explanations are even more improbable, so we are left with no explanations at all.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.

  8. #57
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    So? The anthropic principle and a posteriori probabilities render this moot.
    But which probabilities do you mean? And the anthropic principle doesn't prove anything, unless you assume that the supernatural is impossible.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  9. #58
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But in this case there is a perfectly good natural explanation, it's when natural explanations fail that we then turn to the supernatural.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    So we return yet again to the God of the gaps approach

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  10. #59
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    All that needs to be shown is that abiogenesis is improbable, no need to show that it is impossible.
    There is no objective verifiable evidence that it is improbable. IT is only speculation based on unethical use of statistics as previously cited in a number of previous threads. Do I need to post it again?!?!?!

    So then the question becomes, do we know enough of natural processes, to be able to estimate the probability of abiogenesis? Hubert Yockey would say yes, we do, and his arguments would then need to be addressed, specifically.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The arguments of Hubert Yockey's unethical use of probability and statistics, by the way the same as ID advocates, have been addressed before several times with references.

    Abiogenesis nor evolution are based on 'objective verifiable evidence' and progressive research and discoveries, and not estimates of probabilities. No objective verifiable evidence based on a 'positive' falsifiable hypothesis supported by science has been presented to support the Yockey's assertions and those of the ID assertions.

    Still waiting . . .
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-14-2020 at 04:25 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #60
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    All that needs to be shown is that abiogenesis is improbable, no need to show that it is impossible. So then the question becomes, do we know enough of natural processes, to be able to estimate the probability of abiogenesis? Hubert Yockey would say yes, we do, and his arguments would then need to be addressed, specifically.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The possibility of falsifying a negative hypothesis is impossible to support that assertion of improbability, and not demonstrating that abiogenesis nor evolution is impossible nor improbabile, which is not a scientific hypothesis
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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