Originally posted by David Hayward
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The metaphysics of there being no God.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostHey numbered guy. How is it different to believe in an uncaused "universe" than it is to believe in an uncaused creator. Give me one reason to believe in an "eternal uncaused universe.". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by David Hayward View Post<snip>
But this post of mine does but comment on a technical point: I strongly suspect that a rebuttal of 37818's OP's claim can be given by one of the handful of TWebbers who are familiar with the philosophy of Aristotle or Thomas Aquinas. Or Edward Feser has a "So you think you understand the cosmological argument?" blog article
All the classical arguments, proofs for the necessary existence of God, by that premise: "That there is no God" are rendered false. True arguments of logic do not prove a none existent thing to exist. Why does an "uncaused existence" need a God? The simple truth is an "uncaused existence" needs no God. All said proofs, all presume existence.
As for an uncaused universe, our known observable universe is made up of effects. Which effect, if any has no cause? An "uncaused effect." Existence exists. The uncaused self existent existence.Last edited by 37818; 02-01-2014, 08:57 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostThat a premise cannot be logically proven false is not a logical proof for its truth.
[I am a theist BTW]
So what does it mean if a premise cannot be logically proven false? How do you prove something logically true?Last edited by 37818; 02-01-2014, 09:28 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYes. I never claimed that the premise "that there is no God" cannot be show to be false. I am arguing that failure to be able to show logically that premise "that there is no God" to be self defeating argument suggests that it is in fact true, that there is no God.
[I am a theist BTW]
If you're a theist, what's the point?
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostYou're just moved from the failure "being proof that there is no God" to "suggests that it is in fact true, that there is no God."
If you're a theist, what's the point?
Again, the premise, is that is true, that there is no God. How do you prove what is in fact true false? You don't. Unless you can show that said premise is absurd.Last edited by 37818; 02-01-2014, 09:35 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNo intention here to move the goal post. I stand by my argument, unless it can be shown that the premise: "That there is no God" to be absurd, then the premise can be presumed to be true. Why not?
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostMainly because it can be countered by the following argument: unless it can be shown that the premise: "That there is a [Creator] God" to be absurd, then the premise can be presumed to be true.
You are not understanding the argument. It is premised to be true, that there is no God.
Now the sentence, "This sentence is not true." is inherently an absurd statement. In the same vain, can you show the premise, that there is no God, to be absurd?
It is not an unless you can show that there is no God is absurd. It is on the basis, if in fact there is no God, that is to be deemed to be absurd? Just like the sentence, "This sentence is not true."Last edited by 37818; 02-01-2014, 10:31 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNow the sentence, "This sentence is not true." is inherently an absurd statement. In the same vain, can you show the premise, that there is no God, to be absurd?
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI don't think so. For the sake of argument, let's say we cannot show that "there is no God" has the absurdity of "This sentence is not true". What next?
Self evident truths,
1) Existence exists
2) The Law of identity.
3) The Law of non-contradiction.
4) The Law of the excluded middle.
None of these self evident truths need a God, or they all do. If then the latter, why?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostLet me try again: you are positing an alternate reality in which there is no God. The question you pose is whether in that reality 'there is no God' is absurd. Let us say it is not possible to show it is absurd. What then?
Objective morality would not need a God either. Those theists who argue that objective morality needs a God are actually arguing against objective morality. The need of a God for objective morality is objective morality by fiat.
Good is real. Morality involves good actions. Are good actions required? Only if you want a legacy of good.
Evil is always dependent upon there being good which can be negated in some way.
Simple example, lies need truth. Lies being counterfeit truth.Last edited by 37818; 02-01-2014, 11:39 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Can a premise be made, that there is no truth? Why not? What does it mean to say something is true?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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