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Thread: Faith and Works: The Relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation in the NT

  1. #161
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I'm fairly certain that this is at best a misunderstanding of Catholic belief, but feel free to correct me from an official source.
    You probably know more than I do in this case.
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  2. #162
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    You probably know more than I do in this case.
    Maybe. I'm cautious about assuming the congruence of Orthodox and Catholic belief, even where praxis is similar.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  3. #163
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    It is obvious that you believe salvation is only kept by GENERALLY abstaining from sin, not abstaining from it completely. It's the same basic concept that Catholics believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I think there is a significant difference; Catholics believe we cannot approach Jesus without an intercessory priest (contra Hebrews 4:14-16).
    What is pertinent to this discussion is Obsidian’s conviction that all Christians who maintain the necessity of repentance as a prerequisite to salvation are guilty of adhering to a kind of ‘works-salvation’ that is antithetical to salvation by grace (regardless of how imperfect that repentance might take its shape in the individual’s heart and life).

    In my judgement, this free-grace view of soteriology, held by theologians such as Robert N. Wilkin and Zane C. Hodges, despite all of its promises of assurance and antagonism towards legalism, cannot withstand scriptural scrutiny. (Interestingly, but perhaps unsurprisingly, in his Salvation by Allegiance Alone [2017], Matthew Bates targets a fair amount of his criticism against the the free-grace [mis]understanding of salvation.)
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

  4. #164
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remonstrant
    In my judgement, this free-grace view of soteriology, held by theologians such as Robert N. Wilkin and Zane C. Hodges, despite all of its promises of assurance and antagonism towards legalism, cannot withstand scriptural scrutiny. (Interestingly, but perhaps unsurprisingly, in his Salvation by Allegiance Alone [2017], Matthew Bates targets a fair amount of his criticism against the the free-grace [mis]understanding of salvation.)
    I really couldn't care less what all these other thinkers believe. Let's focus on what is true, not on what other people say.

    Matthew 6:19-21

    19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.


    If someone is uncertain about his place in heaven, will his heart be in heaven? Or will it be on earth?

    Ironically it is works-salvation, not free grace, that promotes lawless living.

  5. #165
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    I really couldn't care less what all these other thinkers believe [e.g. Matthew Bates, Zane Hodges, Robert Wilkin]. Let's focus on what is true, not on what other people say.
    It is helpful to refer persons to authors and/or works that closely align to the position that one is advocating. It is very possible that some (if not many) who read your messages on TheologyWeb are not aware of the brand of theology that you promote, or that there is a specific label for it.
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    What do you believe is the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God? Everyone must repent, but is repentance the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God?
    A person is declared righteous on the basis of faith - salvation is not an outcome of faith alone - at the least, there must be confession with the mouth as well. See Rom 10:9-10

    Then of course, Luke claims that Paul did not preach a works-free salvation:

    Acts 26: 20 Instead, I first told the people in Damascus and Jerusalem, then all the people in Judea—and after that the gentiles—to repent, turn to God, and perform deeds that are consistent with such repentance.
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-16-2019 at 07:43 PM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    I'm troubled by both "sides" in this discussion. Both seem, in their own ways, graceless and merciless.

    For the Assurance / No Doubting side -- I get the impression that if someone showed doubt and littleness of faith, you would angrily snap, "Go ahead and sink, you failure!" -- rather in contrast to Matt. 14:31. I get the impression you would not respond kindly to the person who cried out, "Help my unbelief" or "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

    What say you? Would you have words of comfort and encouragement for such souls, or only harsh condemnation?


    For the Allegiance / Works side -- I'm sorry, but the more you talk, and despite you *somewhat* denying it, the more you sound like you're preaching legalism and salvation by works. How is your message News that is "Good" compared to the Obsolete Covenant? How are you not preaching, "Thank God the old Law is gone! Now we can replace it with a stricter one! Hooray!" How is yours a happy message for the weary and burdened, one that brings rest to the soul?
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  8. #168
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd
    What say you? Would you have words of comfort and encouragement for such souls, or only harsh condemnation?
    Jesus's harshness or gentleness in Matthew 14 made no difference. Either way, Peter began to sink when he lost his assurance. The story illustrates that assurance is an essential part of faith.

    I will say, however, that if someone has faith and later loses it, the person remains saved from hell. But in order to resume living for God, the person needs to get his head on straight.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    For the Allegiance / Works side -- I'm sorry, but the more you talk, and despite you *somewhat* denying it, the more you sound like you're preaching legalism and salvation by works. How is your message News that is "Good" compared to the Obsolete Covenant? How are you not preaching, "Thank God the old Law is gone! Now we can replace it with a stricter one! Hooray!" How is yours a happy message for the weary and burdened, one that brings rest to the soul?
    Ah - that's what the problem is.

    Drunkenness is a sin. The person who wants to overcome this sin, his alcoholism, goes to an AA meeting. The people at the AA meeting tell him that there's nothing he can do about his alcoholism, he will never be able to stop drinking, but he'll find acceptance. Where in that is the good news? Is it not better to show him that it is possible to overcome his sin, for all that he will never be free of the desire: that with perseverance he will not be subject to the sin that would otherwise destroy him: that he has found company with people who are also overcoming that sin?

    Is it any easier, or harder, to overcome alcoholism than any other sin? Not according to the Bible.

    Should the Church be adapting the procedures followed by AA and its variants for use as tools to produce a people who individually and collectively can overcome their sins? Or should the church be teaching people that they can do nothing to become holy, that they will always be no different from anyone outside the faith - and if the latter course is followed, what are they offering those who want to become better people?

    I ask again - Can we honestly claim to believe in Christ if we do not believe what he says? Does Christ set us free only from the penalty for sin, or from sin and the penalty for sin?
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-17-2019 at 01:17 PM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  10. #170
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    I'm troubled by both "sides" in this discussion. Both seem, in their own ways, graceless and merciless.

    For the Assurance / No Doubting side — I get the impression that if someone showed doubt and littleness of faith, you would angrily snap, "Go ahead and sink, you failure!" — rather in contrast to Matt. 14:31. I get the impression you would not respond kindly to the person who cried out, "Help my unbelief" or "My God, why have you forsaken me?"

    What say you? Would you have words of comfort and encouragement for such souls, or only harsh condemnation?


    For the Allegiance / Works side — I'm sorry, but the more you talk, and despite you *somewhat* denying it, the more you sound like you're preaching legalism and salvation by works. How is your message News that is "Good" compared to the Obsolete Covenant? How are you not preaching, "Thank God the old Law is gone! Now we can replace it with a stricter one! Hooray!" How is yours a happy message for the weary and burdened, one that brings rest to the soul?
    A couple of points are in order here:

    • No one has, or ever will, be justified/declared righteous by observing a system of law: ‘[B]y works of law no flesh shall be justified before him; for by law [is] knowledge of sin’ (Rom. 3.20, Darby Translation; cp. Gal. 3.11). Even prior to the old-covenant era, faith in God and his promises was the condition for justification (see Rom. 4).
    • With respect to the journey of Christ-followers towards the fully actualised reign of God in the coming age, both the imagery of rest and strenuous labour are employed throughout the New Testament. The same Jesus who offers rest in him (Mt 11.28–30) also stresses the necessity of agonising to enter the kingdom (Lk 13.24), the difficulty of the way leading to eschatological life, and the fewness of those finding it (Mt 7.13–14).
    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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