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Thread: Faith and Works: The Relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation in the NT

  1. #151
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    That sure is reading a lot into a vague verse. As it just so happens, reading things into vague verses is a common pastime of works-salvationists. How about find something a little more clear to teach your heresy?
    What is vague about the verse? It's a straightforward list of what qualities will disqualify one from eternal life.
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  2. #152
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I agree that people must swear allegiance to Christ. They must be devoted followers of Him. […]
    Yes, and this implies the necessity of repentance in order for one to be saved. I believe that we are both in agreement on this issue.

    Calvinists (of which I believe that you are one) believe that faith and repentance are divine gifts that are bestowed, in time, upon those whom God has unconditionally elected to salvation. Similarly, Arminians believe that, apart from divine grace, it would not be possible for persons to repent and believe. However, dissimilarly, this grace is proffered resistibly rather than irresistibly in an Arminian understanding of salvation. The divide between Arminians and Calvinists is whether salvation is conditional in nature.
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  3. #153
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I've taken a copy of your post for further consideration during mid-year break. Problems might arise for Bates' argument in some of the gospel accounts, where "allegiance" might not work particularly well; people bringing others to Jesus for healing, or coming to Jesus on behalf of absent others even. "Dedication" or "commitment" will work in those accounts - where Christ is only the target (indirect object, so to speak) of faith, rather than the object of faith. On the basis of your recommendation and a strong second from a lecturer**, I'll make sure to give the book some attention.

    ** Lecturer speaking just now recommends Teresa Morgan, Roman Faith and Christian Faith: Pistis and Fides in the Early Roman Empire and Early Churches, Oxford University Press, 2015. as a good and more technical follow up to Bates. [Emphasis added.]
    Thank you for calling attention to Teresa Morgan’s work. Matthew Bates cites her book, Roman Faith and Christian Faith (2015), in four places in Salvation by Allegiance Alone (2017): p. 23 n. 9; p. 88 n. 24; p. 92 n. 27; p. 205 n. 5. It may be a long time until I get round to her volume.
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  4. #154
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Yes, and this implies the necessity of repentance in order for one to be saved. I believe that we are both in agreement on this issue.

    Calvinists (of which I believe that you are one) believe that faith and repentance are divine gifts that are bestowed, in time, upon those whom God has unconditionally elected to salvation. Similarly, Arminians believe that, apart from divine grace, it would not be possible for persons to repent and believe. However, dissimilarly, this grace is proffered resistibly rather than irresistibly in an Arminian understanding of salvation. The divide between Arminians and Calvinists is whether salvation is conditional in nature.
    What do you believe is the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God? Everyone must repent, but is repentance the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God?

  5. #155
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit
    What is vague about the verse? It's a straightforward list of what qualities will disqualify one from eternal life.
    The book also says that all liars are sent to hell. Yet the new creation in Christ is sinless, so this doesn't apply.

    1 John 3:9

    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


    The idea that saved people who are fearful of persecution will somehow lose salvation is your reading into the verse your own vague view.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant
    Again, this charge is thoroughly false.
    The charge that you teach works salvation is thoroughly true. The only part you have denied is that you believe in "sinless perfection." And I never even claimed that much.

  6. #156
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Palatino Linotype]Pardon me: Are you able to provide me a single quotation in which I have explicitly stated that Christ does not save everyone who believes? If not, it seems rather odd of you to state this in the context of our discussion here (on the Theology 201 forum [as opposed to the Unorthodox Theology 201 forum], of all places).
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    [1] Above, you just got done saying that someone must not only believe, but also "desire" to live rightly, and then publicly "swear" to follow Jesus. [2] And it seems to be implied by you that if the oath turns out to be hollow through a lack of sinless living, then the person will go to hell. [3] So yes, you have apparently stated that not everyone who believes is saved. [Emphasis added]
    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    (1) To be clear, in message number 143 on this thread (above), I was quoting Matthew Bates’ work, Salvation by Allegiance Alone (2017). The quotation is indented and properly cited. It is true, however, that I cited Bates with general approbation, yes.

    (2) I have not argued anywhere for anything like the necessity of sinless perfection in the believer’s life in order for salvation to be received or retained by the individual.

    (3) Again, this charge is thoroughly false. It would be prudent of you to not persist in making such uncharitable, unsubstantiated claims of your dialogue partners.“The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him”’ (Jn 3.36, Berean Literal Bible). [Emphasis added.]
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    The charge that you teach works salvation is thoroughly true. The only part you have denied is that you believe in "sinless perfection." And I never even claimed that much.
    I do not desire to carry on in an empty exchange whereby it is expected of me that I clear myself of one false, unsubstantiated claim after another from an anonymous forum user who evidently does not wish to look beyond his narrow free-grace understanding of salvation.
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  7. #157
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    What do you believe is the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God? Everyone must repent, but is repentance the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God?
    The ground of justification is the redemptive work of Christ. The instrumental cause of justification is faith. As indispensable as repentance is for salvation, we are never told anywhere in scripture (specifically in the Pauline corpus) that one is justified/declared righteous via personal repentance; rather, justification is always by faith in the God who raised Jesus from the dead.

    I would imagine that we are in basic agreement with one another on at least this much.
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  8. #158
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant
    I do not desire to carry on in an empty exchange whereby it is expected of me that I clear myself of one false, unsubstantiated claim after another from an anonymous forum user who evidently does not wish to look beyond his narrow free-grace understanding of salvation.
    It is obvious that you believe salvation is only kept by GENERALLY abstaining from sin, not abstaining from it completely. It's the same basic concept that Catholics believe.

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    It is obvious that you believe salvation is only kept by GENERALLY abstaining from sin, not abstaining from it completely. It's the same basic concept that Catholics believe.
    I think there is a significant difference; Catholics believe we cannot approach Jesus without an intercessory priest (contra Hebrews 4:14-16).
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  10. #160
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I think there is a significant difference; Catholics believe we cannot approach Jesus without an intercessory priest (contra Hebrews 4:14-16).
    I'm fairly certain that this is at best a misunderstanding of Catholic belief, but feel free to correct me from an official source.
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