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Thread: Faith and Works: The Relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation in the NT

  1. #21
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Ephesians 2 says that we are saved by grace. Faith is not active in salvation, it is no more than a conduit. in so far as the limits of the relevant statements in Ephesians are concerned.)
    Ephesians 2:4 by grace you are (in a state of) having been saved.
    Ephesians 2:8 by grace you are (in a state of) having been saved, through faith.
    And you seem to be ignoring most of Romans where Paul goes to great lengths to show that we are saved without works, but by faith..

    Like:

    Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

    and pretty much all of Romans 4.

  2. #22
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That is a better way to put it.
    Only because "relationship" can refer to how we are related AND how we get along. I like to distinguish the two. Even if we're not getting along, you're still my brother, but our fellowship stinks.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #23
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    "Justified" does not mean "saved." And no - I don't ignore Romans 4, nor yet Romans 3, where it is repeatedly stated, and explicitly, that no man is justified by deeds of the law.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  4. #24
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito
    The noun almost never translates "belief." Specifically and significantly, (Hab 2:4) "the righteous shall live by faith" translates "emunah" (fidelity) - so any claim that Paul says "the righteous shall live by belief" is scuttled.
    You can't have "fidelity" to a vision. Instead, a person has faith in a vision. The context clearly shows that it is talking about faith.

    Habakkuk 2:2-4

    2 And the Lord answered me, and said,
    Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables,
    that he may run that readeth it.
    3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
    but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:
    though it tarry, wait for it;
    because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
    4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
    but the just shall live by his faith.


    Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. So - if we are gratifying the desires of the flesh, are we walking not by the Spirit? It seems so ... Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    Paul specifically says that it is possible to live by the Spirit without walking by the Spirit.

    Galatians 5:25

    If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

  5. #25
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    "Justified" does not mean "saved." And no - I don't ignore Romans 4, nor yet Romans 3, where it is repeatedly stated, and explicitly, that no man is justified by deeds of the law.
    I said "grace" not justified. Justified means to be "declared righteous." It is what God does with his Grace in order to save you.

    God, because of his love (mercy) even though we don't deserve it (grace) and are sinners, will declare us righteous (justify) when we trust (faith) in him. That means we will have eternal life (salvation) and he can do it because the justice required to punish sin has been accomplished by Jesus on the cross (atonement).

  6. #26
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    God, telling Habakkuk to record the events Habakkuk saw in a vision, also said "the just shall live by faith." There's no "faith in a vision" mentioned.

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.3 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  7. #27
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    According to Paul - God showed his mercy while we were yet sinners.

    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    And verse 9 shows that faith is not the only factor in justification.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  8. #28
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    God, telling Habakkuk to record the events Habakkuk saw in a vision, also said "the just shall live by faith." There's no "faith in a vision" mentioned.

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.3 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    When someone says something you can't or don't want to respond to, you go off on some wild tangent that makes absofreakinglutely no sense at all. Like a distraction or something.

  9. #29
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    When someone says something you can't or don't want to respond to, you go off on some wild tangent that makes absofreakinglutely no sense at all. Like a distraction or something.
    That was a response to Obsidian.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  10. #30
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    That was a response to Obsidian.
    oh OK. I was going, "what???"

    But I do seem to have a hard time following your arguments sometimes. Not sure if it is an American/Australian thing, or if you are just nuts. (of course it can't be me, I am perfectly sane and normal)

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