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Thread: Faith and Works: The Relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation in the NT

  1. #141
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant
    Biblical, new-covenant, saving faith lays hold of the God who raised Jesus from the dead, confessing allegiance to Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10.9–13).
    Strictly speaking, there is nothing in that passage about laying hold on anything, or confessing "allegiance."

    The uncertainty can only come about on the human side of the divine–human equation. My contention is that it is possible for one be in a right standing before God and yet lack the assurance of his or her reconciled condition for a variety of reasons (some of which have been provided above).*
    You can contend for whatever you want. But to lack assurance is to lack faith. To believe the record requires assurance. And to lack assurance is to call God a liar.

    1 John 5:10-11

    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


    To believe in Jesus as the Christ is to believe that he saves everyone who believes.

    John 11:25-27

    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


    Notwithstanding, I entertain the possibility also that persons may possess an assurance that they are justified before God that is presumptuous in nature, based more on ignorance and/or self-deception than the testimony of scripture (perhaps superintended, primarily or in part, by demonic agency).
    To have assurance based on anything other than Jesus is also to lack faith. And by promoting this works-salvation stuff, you are promoting such unbelief.

  2. #142
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    by promoting this works-salvation stuff, you are promoting such unbelief.
    in false doctrines, yes.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  3. #143
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    "Present salvational uncertainty" is just a fancy term for unbelief. Whether you want to call faith "subjective" or objective makes no difference. If you doubt whether he has saved you, then you are not trusting in him for salvation. It is that simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Biblical, new-covenant, saving faith lays hold of the God who raised Jesus from the dead, confessing allegiance to Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10.9–13).
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Strictly speaking, there is nothing in that passage about laying hold on anything [in Romans 10.9–13], or confessing "allegiance."
    Regardless of how it may be received by you, I shall provide an excerpt from Bates’ Salvation by Allegiance Alone (2017):

    Confession of Jesus as Lord is an expression of allegiance to him as the ruling king. Paul is pointing at our need to swear allegiance to Jesus as the Lord, the ruling sovereign, precisely because this lordship stage of Jesus’s career expressly summarizes a key aspect of the gospel, describes Jesus’s current role in earthly and heavenly affairs, and is the essential reality that must be affirmed to become part of God’s family. Public acknowledgement of the acceptance of Jesus’s rule is the premier culminating act of pistis. The verb that Paul selects to describe what is necessary, homologeō, refers in this sort of context to a public declaration, as is made clear by the “with your mouth.” Paul does not envision raising your hand in church or silently praying a prayer in your heart as a sufficient “confession” (nor does Paul say that such an action couldn’t initiate salvation, but he clearly intends something more substantive). Paul is talking about something public and verbal, like what might happen at an ancient baptism—[…]

    […] What is essential for salvation? Public declaration that Jesus is Lord is at the bedrock, because this designates mental agreement with the gospel and the desire to live a life of personal fidelity to Jesus as the sovereign ruler of heaven and earth. (Matthew W. Bates, Salvation by Allegiance Alone: Rethinking Faith, Works, and the Gospel of Jesus the King [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2017], p. 98, emphases in original)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    The present state of any given individual, whether s/he is in a positive relationship with God through Jesus Christ, is unquestionably known to God. The uncertainty can only come about on the human side of the divine–human equation. My contention is that it is possible for one be in a right standing before God and yet lack the assurance of his or her reconciled condition for a variety of reasons (some of which have been provided above [see message no. 136]).
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    [1] You can contend for whatever you want. [2] But to lack assurance is to lack faith. To believe the record requires assurance. And to lack assurance is to call God a liar.

    1 John 5:10-11 [KJV]

    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    (1) Yes, and I have; but thank you for granting me the permission to do so.

    (2) Your understanding of the nature of faith is such that, by definition, it requires the accompaniment of personal assurance of salvation (i.e. the subjective confidence that one is presently united to Christ). In my view, this is a conflation of two distinct concepts: (a) confidence of one’s salvational status and (b) faith itself. It is by faith that one trusts, however feebly, upon the God who provides redemption in Christ Jesus.

    I also am not convinced that you are giving appropriate (if any) consideration of the fact that faith may be weak or strong, small or great. Furthermore, faith, as it is subjective in nature and therefore subject to human mutability and frailty (pun initially not intended), is dynamic: it may grow or wither in the individual’s heart with the passage of time and life’s trials.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    To believe in Jesus as the Christ is to believe that he saves everyone who believes. [A citation of John 11.25–27 (KJV) is then provided by Obsidian.]
    Pardon me: Are you able to provide me a single quotation in which I have explicitly stated that Christ does not save everyone who believes? If not, it seems rather odd of you to state this in the context of our discussion here (on the Theology 201 forum [as opposed to the Unorthodox Theology 201 forum], of all places).


    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Notwithstanding, I entertain the possibility also that persons may possess an assurance that they are justified before God that is presumptuous in nature, based more on ignorance and/or self-deception than the testimony of scripture (perhaps superintended, primarily or in part, by demonic agency).
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    To have assurance based on anything other than Jesus is also to lack faith. And by promoting this works-salvation stuff, you are promoting such unbelief.
    By reading your response, it appears as though this exchange never occurred.
    For Neo-Remonstration: <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

  4. #144
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant
    By reading your response, it appears as though this exchange never occurred.
    You stated that someone could have a false assurance. I stated that someone could have a false assurance only if that assurance was based on something other than Jesus.

    Confession of Jesus as Lord is an expression of allegiance to him as the ruling king. Paul is pointing at our need to swear allegiance to Jesus as the Lord . . . . The verb that Paul selects to describe what is necessary, homologeō, refers in this sort of context to a public declaration, as is made clear by the “with your mouth.”
    No, I don't think so. Now it sounds like you are teaching baptismal regeneration. But see this passage:

    Acts 10:43-44

    43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.


    In fact, the Romans 10 passage that your teacher cites doesn't even call the verbal statement "necessary." Do you understand the difference between "if," versus "if any only if"?

    Pardon me: Are you able to provide me a single quotation in which I have explicitly stated that Christ does not save everyone who believes?
    Above, you just got done saying that someone must not only believe, but also "desire" to live rightly, and then publicly "swear" to follow Jesus. And it seems to be implied by you that if the oath turns out to be hollow through a lack of sinless living, then the person will go to hell. So yes, you have apparently stated that not everyone who believes is saved.

  5. #145
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    So yes, you have apparently stated that not everyone who believes is saved.
    To say otherwise would be to deny that the validity of the Biblical record.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  6. #146
    tWebber
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    Regardless of how it may be received by you, I shall provide an excerpt from Bates’ Salvation by Allegiance Alone (2017):

    Confession of Jesus as Lord is an expression of allegiance to him as the ruling king. Paul is pointing at our need to swear allegiance to Jesus as the Lord, the ruling sovereign, precisely because this lordship stage of Jesus’s career expressly summarizes a key aspect of the gospel, describes Jesus’s current role in earthly and heavenly affairs, and is the essential reality that must be affirmed to become part of God’s family. Public acknowledgement of the acceptance of Jesus’s rule is the premier culminating act of pistis. The verb that Paul selects to describe what is necessary, homologeō, refers in this sort of context to a public declaration, as is made clear by the “with your mouth.” Paul does not envision raising your hand in church or silently praying a prayer in your heart as a sufficient “confession” (nor does Paul say that such an action couldn’t initiate salvation, but he clearly intends something more substantive). Paul is talking about something public and verbal, like what might happen at an ancient baptism—[…]

    […] What is essential for salvation? Public declaration that Jesus is Lord is at the bedrock, because this designates mental agreement with the gospel and the desire to live a life of personal fidelity to Jesus as the sovereign ruler of heaven and earth. (Matthew W. Bates, Salvation by Allegiance Alone: Rethinking Faith, Works, and the Gospel of Jesus the King [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2017], p. 98, emphases in original)
    I agree that people must swear allegiance to Christ. They must be devoted followers of Him. However, that is a different issue than the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God. The basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God is Christ's payment for our sin, Christ's resurrection, and Christ's righteousness imputed to the believer's account. Our commitment or our performance or our obedience cannot be the basis upon which we are justified before God. Philippians 3:9 teaches that we do not have our own righteousness. Romans chapters 3 & 4 and Galatians 2 teaches that we are not justified by the works of the law.

    When God justifies a person, He will also change that person so that he will obey God, but his obedience is not the basis upon which God justifies people. Giving allegiance to Christ and living like it are consequences of being born again; they are not what provides the reason why God would declare people righteous in the first place.

  7. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.
  8. #147
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    I agree that people must swear allegiance to Christ. They must be devoted followers of Him. However, that is a different issue than the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God.
    Revelation 21:8 says that the cowardly and the unbelieving will not receive eternal life; they are not one and the same. Given that the book was written as encouragement to persecuted Christians, it is reasonable to assume that "cowardly" is in the sense of those who falter under persecution, and by definition, maintain allegiance to something other than Christ; in this case, the Roman state.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  9. Amen The Remonstrant amen'd this post.
  10. #148
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King's Gambit
    Revelation 21:8 says that the cowardly and the unbelieving will not receive eternal life; they are not one and the same. Given that the book was written as encouragement to persecuted Christians, it is reasonable to assume that "cowardly" is in the sense of those who falter under persecution, and by definition, maintain allegiance to something other than Christ; in this case, the Roman state.
    That sure is reading a lot into a vague verse. As it just so happens, reading things into vague verses is a common pastime of works-salvationists. How about find something a little more clear to teach your heresy?

  11. #149
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Revelation 21:8 says that the cowardly and the unbelieving will not receive eternal life; they are not one and the same. Given that the book was written as encouragement to persecuted Christians, it is reasonable to assume that "cowardly" is in the sense of those who falter under persecution, and by definition, maintain allegiance to something other than Christ; in this case, the Roman state.
    I would agree that the warning in Revelation 21.8 most likely serves as a warning to Christ-followers that apostates, who are the opposite of those who overcome (v. 7), will receive eschatological punishment. The ‘cowardly’ (deilos) are those who abandon the King of kings and Lord of lords for the alleviation of temporal harm and/or the obtainment of some form of enjoyment of temporal security.
    For Neo-Remonstration: <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

  12. #150
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    You can contend for whatever you want. But to lack assurance is to lack faith. To believe the record requires assurance. And to lack assurance is to call God a liar.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Pardon me: Are you able to provide me a single quotation in which I have explicitly stated that Christ does not save everyone who believes? If not, it seems rather odd of you to state this in the context of our discussion here (on the Theology 201 forum [as opposed to the Unorthodox Theology 201 forum], of all places).
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    [1] Above, you just got done saying that someone must not only believe, but also "desire" to live rightly, and then publicly "swear" to follow Jesus. [2] And it seems to be implied by you that if the oath turns out to be hollow through a lack of sinless living, then the person will go to hell. [3] So yes, you have apparently stated that not everyone who believes is saved.
    (1) To be clear, in message number 143 on this thread (above), I was quoting Matthew Bates’ work, Salvation by Allegiance Alone (2017). The quotation is indented and properly cited. It is true, however, that I cited Bates with general approbation, yes.

    (2) I have not argued anywhere for anything like the necessity of sinless perfection in the believer’s life in order for salvation to be received or retained by the individual.

    (3) Again, this charge is thoroughly false. It would be prudent of you to not persist in making such uncharitable, unsubstantiated claims of your dialogue partners. ‘“The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him”’ (Jn 3.36, Berean Literal Bible).
    For Neo-Remonstration: <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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