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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Faith and Works: The Relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation in the NT
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Because I believe God chooses us and makes us alive when we were dead, that is, before we believed, not after (logically, not temporally), I think faith can be broken down one more step. Beyond atoms, protons, and neutrons, you find quarks at their heart. Beyond faith (as a conscious and personal action), you find God entering a heart and binding it to him, giving it a spark of spiritual life that is its inner connection to God (the vine and the branches, the only source of life). That connection and life that comes from God, not from us, and which is at the real heart of our connection to Christ’s redemption and justification of our sins, displays itself immediately and invariably as faith, trust in God (not just the “open hand” that receives God’s gifts, but the hand that opens to receive those gifts because God animated it). It is God’s gift of life, not our “gift” to God of our faith and trust, that saves us, but the two are inextricably joined. (I can't believe I'm saying this, but in that regard, I think Tabibito got this right: Faith is not active in salvation, it is no more than a conduit. We are saved through faith, not by or because of faith, as if faith was the one and only activity that counts as a good work that causes God to save us).
Faith then inevitably (though more slowly) results in a measure of sanctification and holy living. You can’t have one without the other (faith and good works). And there are many ways in which Scriptures take a holistic approach to things, so that, unless the context and the immediate point being made requires it, they do not disect spiritual life and faith and works into three distinct parts, but treat them as one whole, indivisible unit.
I think justification in Scriptures has two meanings, being recognized as holy and free of all condemnation before God (because he declares us so), and being recognized as blameless by the world (ourselves or others), because we’ve done nothing wrong (or we had a good excuse, as it was when a man wanted to ‘justify’ himself when he asked Jesus “Who is my neighbor?” He knew his own life and actions weren’t perfect, but maybe excusable).
James does not contradict Paul, but uses “justify” in this second sense. You can’t present yourself to the world as blameless by faith alone; they can’t see your faith. You are shown blameless by faith that shows itself through works.
James is correcting the same wrong idea that Paul was accused of teaching and had to correct when he insisted that justification by grace through faith does not mean we can go on sinning, as if good works were optional to one who is saved.
Good works are necessary in the sense faith necessarily results in good works, not in the sense that good works are a deciding factor in justification before God or in salvation.
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James is correcting the same wrong idea that Paul was accused of teaching and had to correct when he insisted that justification by grace through faith does not mean we can go on sinning, as if good works were optional to one who is saved.
Faith then inevitably (though more slowly) results in a measure of sanctification and holy living.
Good works are necessary in the sense faith necessarily results in good works, not in the sense that good works are a deciding factor in justification before God or in salvation.
Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. So - if we are gratifying the desires of the flesh, are we walking not by the Spirit? It seems so ... Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Of course, it does happen from time to time that translations make it seem that the person does something, where the Koine texts show that the person actually receives it - but usually referring back to the Koine is frowned upon.Last edited by tabibito; 05-23-2019, 09:43 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostEphesians 2 says that we are saved by grace. Faith is not active in salvation, it is no more than a conduit. in so far as the limits of the relevant statements in Ephesians are concerned.)
Ephesians 2:4 by grace you are (in a state of) having been saved.
Ephesians 2:8 by grace you are (in a state of) having been saved, through faith.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostEphesians 2 says that we are saved by grace. Faith is not active in salvation, it is no more than a conduit. in so far as the limits of the relevant statements in Ephesians are concerned.)
Ephesians 2:4 by grace you are (in a state of) having been saved.
Ephesians 2:8 by grace you are (in a state of) having been saved, through faith.
Like:
Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
and pretty much all of Romans 4.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat is a better way to put it.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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"Justified" does not mean "saved." And no - I don't ignore Romans 4, nor yet Romans 3, where it is repeatedly stated, and explicitly, that no man is justified by deeds of the law.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibitoThe noun almost never translates "belief." Specifically and significantly, (Hab 2:4) "the righteous shall live by faith" translates "emunah" (fidelity) - so any claim that Paul says "the righteous shall live by belief" is scuttled.
Habakkuk 2:2-4
2 And the Lord answered me, and said,
Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables,
that he may run that readeth it.
3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:
though it tarry, wait for it;
because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
but the just shall live by his faith.
Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. So - if we are gratifying the desires of the flesh, are we walking not by the Spirit? It seems so ... Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post"Justified" does not mean "saved." And no - I don't ignore Romans 4, nor yet Romans 3, where it is repeatedly stated, and explicitly, that no man is justified by deeds of the law.
God, because of his love (mercy) even though we don't deserve it (grace) and are sinners, will declare us righteous (justify) when we trust (faith) in him. That means we will have eternal life (salvation) and he can do it because the justice required to punish sin has been accomplished by Jesus on the cross (atonement).
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God, telling Habakkuk to record the events Habakkuk saw in a vision, also said "the just shall live by faith." There's no "faith in a vision" mentioned.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.3 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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According to Paul - God showed his mercy while we were yet sinners.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
And verse 9 shows that faith is not the only factor in justification.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostGod, telling Habakkuk to record the events Habakkuk saw in a vision, also said "the just shall live by faith." There's no "faith in a vision" mentioned.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.3 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhen someone says something you can't or don't want to respond to, you go off on some wild tangent that makes absofreakinglutely no sense at all. Like a distraction or something.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat was a response to Obsidian.
But I do seem to have a hard time following your arguments sometimes. Not sure if it is an American/Australian thing, or if you are just nuts. (of course it can't be me, I am perfectly sane and normal)
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