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Thread: Believer's Baptism

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Believer's Baptism

    Another discussion got me thinking about this a bit, and it's making increasingly less sense to me.

    As far as I recall, proponents of believer's (i.o.w., adult) baptism believe that baptism is not efficacious for salvation, because that would be salvation by works; it's done because Jesus commanded disciples to be baptized, but it's not a sacrament. On the other hand, you have to have undergone it to become a member of the church. Why? It seems to me that it unnecessarily excludes children from church membership and, since it's not relevant in the context of salvation, a simple affirmation of concurrence with the congregation's beliefs would be sufficient.
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  2. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    My view is that

    1. You are obeying Christ who said to do it.
    2. You are proclaiming your allegiance to Christ, to your fellow Christians and to the world. If is a form of confessing Christ as your Lord and Savior
    3. It symbolizes dying and being reborn.

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Another discussion got me thinking about this a bit, and it's making increasingly less sense to me.

    As far as I recall, proponents of believer's (i.o.w., adult) baptism believe that baptism is not efficacious for salvation, because that would be salvation by works; it's done because Jesus commanded disciples to be baptized, but it's not a sacrament. On the other hand, you have to have undergone it to become a member of the church. Why? It seems to me that it unnecessarily excludes children from church membership and, since it's not relevant in the context of salvation, a simple affirmation of concurrence with the congregation's beliefs would be sufficient.
    Believers' baptism is based on the Biblical comments regarding repentance, and confession of faith, which presuppose the ability to comprehend and accept the gospel. From my point of view, where infant baptism is performed, the ceremony isn't completed until confirmation (which fulfils the confession and repentance requirements). Admittedly that might just be rationalisation. As far as I know, a significant number of proponents of Believers' Baptism do accept that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Nor can I see any way to avoid admitting that it is a requirement. The most significant single verse supporting baptism as a requirement (I do NOT subscribe to proof texting) AND supporting believers' baptism is 1 Peter 3:20-21
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    My view is that

    1. You are obeying Christ who said to do it.
    2. You are proclaiming your allegiance to Christ, to your fellow Christians and to the world. If is a form of confessing Christ as your Lord and Savior
    3. It symbolizes dying and being reborn.
    I take some issues with the second point as well, but the bolded is where I disagree the most with people who hold to believer's baptism. I can find no support in scripture for the view that when Paul talks about us being put to death and raised to life with Christ in baptism, it's meant in a symbolic way.

    Of course, since I believe infants can (and should) be baptized, I am also not fully on board with the second point either. When a parent gets their infant baptized it could be seen as a confession that the parents intend to raise their child as Christian, but the infant itself doesn't confess anything. But when someone who is old enough to decide for themselves get baptized, then it also works as a confession. But when it comes to Christians who have gotten baptized as infants I think confirmation fills that same role for them.

  6. Amen Ana Dragule amen'd this post.
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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I take some issues with the second point as well, but the bolded is where I disagree the most with people who hold to believer's baptism. I can find no support in scripture for the view that when Paul talks about us being put to death and raised to life with Christ in baptism, it's meant in a symbolic way.

    Of course, since I believe infants can (and should) be baptized, I am also not fully on board with the second point either. When a parent gets their infant baptized it could be seen as a confession that the parents intend to raise their child as Christian, but the infant itself doesn't confess anything. But when someone who is old enough to decide for themselves get baptized, then it also works as a confession. But when it comes to Christians who have gotten baptized as infants I think confirmation fills that same role for them.
    Agreed - It might be possible to raise an argument on scriptural grounds for any of the other sacraments to be symbolic ... but nothing in scripture can be advanced to support an argument that baptism is symbolic or unnecessary. As a requirement, it is locked solid.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I take some issues with the second point as well, but the bolded is where I disagree the most with people who hold to believer's baptism. I can find no support in scripture for the view that when Paul talks about us being put to death and raised to life with Christ in baptism, it's meant in a symbolic way.
    erm.. the fact that you don't actually die and stay dead for 3 days would seem to be the giveaway. Just sayin'

    Of course, since I believe infants can (and should) be baptized, I am also not fully on board with the second point either. When a parent gets their infant baptized it could be seen as a confession that the parents intend to raise their child as Christian, but the infant itself doesn't confess anything. But when someone who is old enough to decide for themselves get baptized, then it also works as a confession. But when it comes to Christians who have gotten baptized as infants I think confirmation fills that same role for them.
    I believe that infants being baptized (they do it at my church, with sprinkling) is as you said, a pledge to raise their children Christian. It is the parents making a pledge, not the infants. I think that a person needs to know what being saved means before they should be baptized. Or it is a meaningless confession. No more valid than dunking yourself in a public swimming pool.

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    erm.. the fact that you don't actually die and stay dead for 3 days would seem to be the giveaway. Just sayin'



    I believe that infants being baptized (they do it at my church, with sprinkling) is as you said, a pledge to raise their children Christian. It is the parents making a pledge, not the infants. I think that a person needs to know what being saved means before they should be baptized. Or it is a meaningless confession. No more valid than dunking yourself in a public swimming pool.
    Interesting concept. Self-baptism. When there really is no other way.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Interesting concept. Self-baptism. When there really is no other way.
    I meant playing in a pool not baptizing yourself.


    Although that brings up a good point. If you believed that baptism was necessary for salvation and you were all alone on a desert island, could you baptize yourself?

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    I did miss that bit about being put to death and raised to life ... and for a second there, I was given pause (maybe symbolic). But no - it isn't physical death, but it still isn't symbolic because it is a removal from control by the flesh. (might need some investigation, but that's the way it seems right now.)
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Another discussion got me thinking about this a bit, and it's making increasingly less sense to me.

    As far as I recall, proponents of believer's (i.o.w., adult) baptism believe that baptism is not efficacious for salvation, because that would be salvation by works; it's done because Jesus commanded disciples to be baptized, but it's not a sacrament. On the other hand, you have to have undergone it to become a member of the church. Why? It seems to me that it unnecessarily excludes children from church membership and, since it's not relevant in the context of salvation, a simple affirmation of concurrence with the congregation's beliefs would be sufficient.
    I was reading your post again.

    So what do you mean by sacrament? I believe baptism is a holy ceremony. I don't think it saves you but it is holy and sacred.

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