Originally posted by Cow Poke
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMy view is that
1. You are obeying Christ who said to do it.
2. You are proclaiming your allegiance to Christ, to your fellow Christians and to the world. If is a form of confessing Christ as your Lord and Savior
3. It symbolizes dying and being reborn.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI was reading your post again.
So what do you mean by sacrament? I believe baptism is a holy ceremony. I don't think it saves you but it is holy and sacred.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI held since before joining Tweb that "is baptism required for salvation" is asking the wrong question; the relevant question is "if you're saved, why wouldn't you be baptized?"The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI know an 8-year old who remembers being baptized at 1. It's not something I usually ask. IIRC George Blaisdell knew people who recalled being baptized as infants.
Am I gonna regret not using sarcasm tags?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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How many children have been told "you couldn't possibly remember that; you were too young"? It might be that on occasion, one person or another remembers.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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It didn't fail completely. The only thing I'd change is instead of sparar, which does mean save, but in the sense of saving money rather than saving a life, I'd use instead which, while it does have pretty significant theological undertones, is more in line with what the word really means. (of which is a form) which could also be used, doesn't have the same theological implications, and could also be used, but in that case it would more imply being saved from physical danger, rather than spiritual danger.
So if you believe that the word saves refers to being rescued from physical danger, or just being rescued in general, I would use , though it would look a bit awkward to use the same word, even if they're in different forms, so close to each other in the same sentence. If you believe it's talking about being saved from damnation, or being saved in a spiritual sense, I'd use instead.
If we consult an actual Swedish translation of the Koine, the version I use most commonly, Svenska Folkbibeln 1998 (there's a 1998 and a 2015 edition, but I mostly use the older one) renders it as:
Roughly translated to English it would read as:
"In it[referring to the ark that was mentioned previously in the verse] a few, (that is) eight persons, were saved through water."
The implication being that saved through water does not refer to the reader, but to the eight persons in the ark. Though it does go on to say:
Which roughly translated to English would mean something like: "According to this model/example/pattern, baptism now also saves you."
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It seems that Swedish can't deal with the Koine Greek grammar directly in this passage - but better than English grammar can. However, the Swedish translators have done a VERY good job of preserving the meaning.
I think the Swedish words are in the right places below: they're related to the English words (near as I can tell). The English words translate the Koine Greek.
8 saved Koine Eng Swed.jpgLast edited by tabibito; 05-26-2019, 02:07 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI respect Dr. Keener, but what he's saying here regarding similarities between Jewish ritual baths and early Christian baptism simply does not stand up to closer examination (see Dr. Everett Ferguson, Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries). From what I recall, it is rather unclear that Jews even practiced initiatory baptism of proselytes at the time; if they did, it is speculation at best to opine why they did so, and in any case it was self-administered and temporary (as it was certainly not the only ritual bath performed by Jews at the time).
This discussion got me curious, so I briefly checked a few other resources.
My Keener citations came from the 1993 edition of his commentary, because that one is available in electronic form (in my case, as a module for "The Word"), facilitating easy copy-and-paste.
He presented and defended both the Mark 1 and John 3 passages in some depth in The Spirit in the Gospels and Acts (1997) and even more extensively the John 1 and 3 passages in The Gospel of John: A Commentary (2003).
Ben Witherington III -- In his 1995 commentary, John's Wisdom -- a Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, he dismisses rather casually the idea that in John 3:5, "water" and "spirit" are used interchangeably. (He implies that this claimed interchangeability is based solely on slim grammatical grounds.) However, he also finds that the "water" in v. 5 has nothing to do with water baptism.
In his 2001 commentary, The Gospel of Mark -- a Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, he dismisses the relevance of Jewish proselyte baptism w.r.t. John the Baptizer. One point catches my eye: He notes, as does Ferguson, that such baptism was "self-administered." However, while Ferguson notes that such proselyte baptism required witness and instructors, BWIII does not mention this, and considers the fact that candidates sought out John to officiate to be a strike against the idea that his was related to proselyte baptism.
Gary Burge, in his 1987 Johannine pneumatology The Anointed Community, sees various Jewish purification rituals, proselyte baptism, and John's baptism as the background for the Nicodemus dialogue. He does not (AFAICT) directly link John's baptism to Jewish proselyte baptism. He does (if I'm understanding him) argue that in 3:5, "water" and "spirit" are tightly linked, and that the context emphasizes the Spirit such that the physical water becomes secondary and even dispensable.
In his 2009 book, The New Testament in Antiquity, he discusses ritual baths, proselyte baptism, and John's baptism, and notes, without taking an obvious position, that scholarly opinion is divided as to whether proselyte baptism was extant early enough for John to have adapted it.Last edited by NorrinRadd; 05-26-2019, 05:08 AM.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAnother discussion got me thinking about this a bit, and it's making increasingly less sense to me.
As far as I recall, proponents of believer's (i.o.w., adult) baptism believe that baptism is not efficacious for salvation, because that would be salvation by works; it's done because Jesus commanded disciples to be baptized, but it's not a sacrament. On the other hand, you have to have undergone it to become a member of the church. Why? It seems to me that it unnecessarily excludes children from church membership and, since it's not relevant in the context of salvation, a simple affirmation of concurrence with the congregation's beliefs would be sufficient.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 05-27-2019, 10:08 AM.
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I'm kind of in agreement with those sentiments. You can drag an unrepentant sinner into the water, but that won't make him baptised.
There's a body of evidence that the person has to at least know enough to make a plea to God involved with baptism.
The idea that the brigand on the cross who repented had never been baptised ignores much of the cultural background of the time, nothing more than speculation supports the assertion. If, for example, he had been a Zionist ... almost no chance that he would not have been baptised. Both assertions are equally speculative.
The necessity for the baptisee to be an adult though, might be just a little beyond what can logically be inferred from scripture. Twelve year olds? On my part - no hesitation. Seven year olds? I wouldn't necessarily be averse.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post2. IB allows millions of infants to be baptised who later throw over the Faith they had been baptised into. ...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI've run into, a lot, a person who makes the claim "Well, I was baptized, so I'm good". They're referring to their infant baptism which appears to have lured them into a false sense of security that they are thereby saved.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
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Infant baptism could also be justified back when mortality rates for young children were exceptionally high.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostInfant baptism could also be justified back when mortality rates for young children were exceptionally high.
Then there are those baptised later in life who feel that they now have carte blanche to do whatever they want because they're guaranteed of going to heaven.Last edited by tabibito; 05-27-2019, 02:05 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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