Originally posted by KingsGambit
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
Forum Rules: Here
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Believer's Baptism
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostWhat's being put to death is our old nature, not our physical body. The circumcision of the heart by God that Paul speaks about in various places in his epistles is what happens in baptism. No one who believes in baptismal regeneration believes that Paul is saying that the physical body is put to death in baptism. If we did then everyone of us would have changed our mind the second someone brought up the objection you just did.
I think even if you hold to believer's baptism there's really nothing wrong with infant baptism. If someone gets baptized as an infant and later when he's old enough to decide that he wants to continue living as a Christian I see no reason why the baptism he underwent as a child wouldn't be sufficient. Confessing with your mouth should be enough to confirm that baptism as valid, even if you weren't old enough to accept it at the time. It would basically be like saying "I might not have been old enough to decide for myself when I was an infant that I wanted to get baptized, but I am old enough know, and I agree with my parents' decision to get me baptized."Last edited by Sparko; 05-24-2019, 02:01 PM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNo problem with that idea myself, but re-baptising people (anabaptism) was declared heretical when it first was done during the reformation. People were even executed for doing it (the preferred method was drowning.)
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostOf course, since I believe infants can (and should) be baptized, I am also not fully on board with the second point either. When a parent gets their infant baptized it could be seen as a confession that the parents intend to raise their child as Christian, but the infant itself doesn't confess anything. But when someone who is old enough to decide for themselves get baptized, then it also works as a confession. But when it comes to Christians who have gotten baptized as infants I think confirmation fills that same role for them.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIn every church I've ever attended, that has been referred to as "dedicating" your child. It also includes a call to the church body to support the parents and the child in their Christian walk.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwhat makes you think that doesn't happen when you first belief and ask God to save you? The thief on the cross didn't get baptized. in various places in the bible the people believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit before being baptized.
It's a matter of obedience. The infant had no choice in the matter, but a believer does. And it is a public confession. Why wouldn't someone want to get baptized once they are saved? Even if they were baptized as a baby?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAnother discussion got me thinking about this a bit, and it's making increasingly less sense to me.
As far as I recall, proponents of believer's (i.o.w., adult) baptism believe that baptism is not efficacious for salvation, because that would be salvation by works; it's done because Jesus commanded disciples to be baptized, but it's not a sacrament. On the other hand, you have to have undergone it to become a member of the church. Why? It seems to me that it unnecessarily excludes children from church membership and, since it's not relevant in the context of salvation, a simple affirmation of concurrence with the congregation's beliefs would be sufficient.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostWhich was an awful thing that never should have happened. Although, from a cursory reading it seems that it wasn't simply because they re-baptized people that they were put to death, but also because people believed they we're jeopardizing the societal structure of the time. Which I'm not saying justifies anything about what happened though. Being put to death for their beliefs probably just confirmed to the anabaptists in their mind that they had the truth.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostMany families who are nominally religious will still have their infants baptized. I think this sort of thing cheapens baptism. It was meant to be a solemn symbol of a new, changed life with Jesus, not just something every kid goes through.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostPaul claimed that Baptism was the action by which a person crucified the flesh. Rom 6:5-6, that in baptism we are buried with him and raised to new life Rom 6:4, Col 2:12
And in 6:5 He says it is symbolic (likeness)
For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection (NET)
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNo problem with that idea myself, but re-baptising people...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwhat makes you think that doesn't happen when you first belief and ask God to save you? The thief on the cross didn't get baptized. in various places in the bible the people believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit before being baptized.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt's a matter of obedience. The infant had no choice in the matter, but a believer does. And it is a public confession. Why wouldn't someone want to get baptized once they are saved? Even if they were baptized as a baby?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd in 6:5 He says it is symbolic (likeness)
For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection (NET)1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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