Believer's Baptism

[Cow Poke]

I think that "membership" becomes important depending on the type of church government. If the congregation can vote on matters like salaries, purchasing buildings, spending money - there needs to be some mechanism to assure only those who are 'members' vote. In churches where the membership doesn't really get to vote on policy and fiances and stuff, there's no real need to have a formal "membership".

I don't hear about this so much anymore, but there used to be an issue (back when large families were more common) that "membership" with regards to voting in church business meetings would be limited to 16 or 18 years or older, out of concern that two parents of a half dozen kids or more could influence those kids to vote a certain way....

[NorrinRadd]

I think that "membership" becomes important depending on the type of church government. If the congregation can vote on matters like salaries, purchasing buildings, spending money - there needs to be some mechanism to assure only those who are 'members' vote. In churches where the membership doesn't really get to vote on policy and fiances and stuff, there's no real need to have a formal "membership".

There was a Baptist church about 90 miles from me where the "membership" was about 40 people, and they had a nice church building. Another nearby congregation of another denomination began systematically sending people to "join" that Church, and there were no safeguards in place to prevent sufficient new 'members' from joining such that the "new people" reached a majority, and voted to change the Church's name and denomination and install their own pastor.

Kind of like "open primaries."

I think it can also sometimes be an issue w.r.t. communion.

[tabibito]

@ Chrawnus
How does 1 Peter 3:20-21 read in Swedish? (picking up at "eight souls were saved")

Google translate gives (stop laughing)
"eight souls were saved through the water that now saves you"
as
"ĺtta själar räddades genom vattnet som nu sparar dig"

[Scrawly]

The OP has been covered and NR beat me to it, but here is a short article anyway that reiterates some of Keener's insight on John 3:

Source: Craig Keener

When Nicodemus, himself a religious teacher, praised Jesus as a great teacher, Jesus revealed himself as more than a teacher. Jesus is a savior, and he confronts this religious teacher with his need for salvation. “You must be born from above,” Jesus told him (John 3:3). The Greek word for “above” can also mean, “again,” and Nicodemus supposes that Jesus asks him to enter his mother’s womb again (3:4). So Jesus explains further: “You must be born from water and the Spirit” (3:5).



Not only Nicodemus, but a host of interpreters through history, have wondered what Jesus meant. What Jesus most naturally meant in light of first-century culture Nicodemus assumed that he could not mean! When Gentiles converted to Judaism, they normally ritually immersed themselves to wash away their former Gentile impurities. According to later Jewish teachers, once a Gentile converted to Judaism they were like a newborn child, having forsaken their previous people and lifestyle and now serving the God of Israel. Had Jesus told a Gentile to be “born of water,” Nicodemus could have guessed what he meant. But he could hardly imagine that Jesus would demand the same of him, a religious Jewish teacher descended from Abraham!



Yet this is likely precisely Jesus’ point. We are not saved by our ethnicity or because we grew up in church; we are not saved even by our religious deeds. We are saved because Jesus died for us (John 3:16) and rose again. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he had to come to God on the same terms that Gentiles did, the same terms that we all do: he had to accept God’s gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. Later, in John 8:44, Jesus argues that people who have sinned (everyone) are children of the devil, following his nature; when Jesus comes into our lives, however, we get a new nature and are born from God. We may not start off by living out that new nature perfectly, but at least we are aware that we have a new Lord.



But why does Jesus add, “born from the Spirit”? As Calvin and others have suggested, the Greek phrase here translated, “water and the Spirit,” may be what is called a hendiadys, using the conjunction epexegetically. In other words, we might translate it, “born from the water of the Spirit.” Jesus uses “water” as a symbol for the Spirit in John’s Gospel (John 7:37-39). Thus he is telling Nicodemus not that he will be saved by Jewish ritual immersion, but that he will be saved instead by a spiritual baptism by the Spirit, i.e., by the gift of God’s Spirit transforming his heart. All those who embrace Christ as savior become God’s children (John 1:12-13).



Jesus probably alludes in this context to the restoration promise of Ezekiel 36:25-27: God would sprinkle clean water on his people, put a new spirit in them, and give them his own Spirit. Thus, Jesus speaks of the spirit that is born from the Spirit (John 3:6). He goes on to compare God’s life-giving Spirit with the wind (3:8), just as in Ezekiel’s next chapter (Ezek 37:1-14).



God does not save us because we are Jewish or Gentile; God loves the entire world, including all peoples and cultures (John 3:16). All of us have sinned and left God’s way, but when we accept and trust the gift of God’s Son, he welcomes each of us as his children. May we labor until all know about him.



This is adapted from Craig’s 2005 article in the Missionary Seer; Craig has also authored The Gospel of John: A Commentary (Baker Academic), which received an award of merit in the Christianity Today book awards.

© Copyright Original Source

Source

When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is sure.

[tabibito]

But why does Jesus add, “born from the Spirit”? As Calvin and others have suggested, the Greek phrase here translated, “water and the Spirit,” may be what is called a hendiadys, using the conjunction epexegetically. In other words, we might translate it, “born from the water of the Spirit.” Jesus uses “water” as a symbol for the Spirit in John’s Gospel (John 7:37-39). Thus he is telling Nicodemus not that he will be saved by Jewish ritual immersion, but that he will be saved instead by a spiritual baptism by the Spirit, i.e., by the gift of God’s Spirit transforming his heart. All those who embrace Christ as savior become God’s children (John 1:12-13).

It would seem that the founding apostles did not see hendyadys in that comment.

Scripture Verse: Acts 8:14-17

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Acts 19:2-5

and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered him, “No, we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 He then asked, “Then into what were you baptized?”
They answered, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John baptized when they repented, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.”note 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy.

© Copyright Original Source

[NorrinRadd]

It would seem that the founding apostles did not see hendyadys in that comment.

Scripture Verse: Acts 8:14-17

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Acts 19:2-5

and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered him, “No, we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 He then asked, “Then into what were you baptized?”
They answered, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John baptized when they repented, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.”note 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy.

© Copyright Original Source

You may be presupposing more uniformity of terminology and theological emphasis between Luke and John than is warranted.

[Cerebrum123]

He was adding the component of the spiritual - it wasn't enough just to be "born" -- I've had people say "Well, I'm a Christian - I was practically BORN in Church". I always ask them, "well, if a cat crawled into an oven and gave birth to kittens, would you call them muffins?"

Well, you'd have to name at least one of them that.

[tabibito]

You may be presupposing more uniformity of terminology and theological emphasis between Luke and John than is warranted.

Luke provides the only (almost) explicit link between receiving the Holy Spirit and baptism in the Holy Spirit (demonstrating that they are one and the same), and the only records that demonstrate that baptism into Christ is baptism with water and distinct from baptism into the Holy Spirit.

[One Bad Pig]

I don't hear about this so much anymore, but there used to be an issue (back when large families were more common) that "membership" with regards to voting in church business meetings would be limited to 16 or 18 years or older, out of concern that two parents of a half dozen kids or more could influence those kids to vote a certain way....

Working at this sorta back to front, since it exploded overnight. In my parish (as seems to be usual), voting members are those 18 years of age and older in good standing (that is, they have been received into the church and attend at least semi-regularly).

[One Bad Pig]

The OP has been covered and NR beat me to it, but here is a short article anyway that reiterates some of Keener's insight on John 3:

Source: Craig Keener

When Nicodemus, himself a religious teacher, praised Jesus as a great teacher, Jesus revealed himself as more than a teacher. Jesus is a savior, and he confronts this religious teacher with his need for salvation. “You must be born from above,” Jesus told him (John 3:3). The Greek word for “above” can also mean, “again,” and Nicodemus supposes that Jesus asks him to enter his mother’s womb again (3:4). So Jesus explains further: “You must be born from water and the Spirit” (3:5).



Not only Nicodemus, but a host of interpreters through history, have wondered what Jesus meant. What Jesus most naturally meant in light of first-century culture Nicodemus assumed that he could not mean! When Gentiles converted to Judaism, they normally ritually immersed themselves to wash away their former Gentile impurities. According to later Jewish teachers, once a Gentile converted to Judaism they were like a newborn child, having forsaken their previous people and lifestyle and now serving the God of Israel. Had Jesus told a Gentile to be “born of water,” Nicodemus could have guessed what he meant. But he could hardly imagine that Jesus would demand the same of him, a religious Jewish teacher descended from Abraham!



Yet this is likely precisely Jesus’ point. We are not saved by our ethnicity or because we grew up in church; we are not saved even by our religious deeds. We are saved because Jesus died for us (John 3:16) and rose again. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he had to come to God on the same terms that Gentiles did, the same terms that we all do: he had to accept God’s gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. Later, in John 8:44, Jesus argues that people who have sinned (everyone) are children of the devil, following his nature; when Jesus comes into our lives, however, we get a new nature and are born from God. We may not start off by living out that new nature perfectly, but at least we are aware that we have a new Lord.



But why does Jesus add, “born from the Spirit”? As Calvin and others have suggested, the Greek phrase here translated, “water and the Spirit,” may be what is called a hendiadys, using the conjunction epexegetically. In other words, we might translate it, “born from the water of the Spirit.” Jesus uses “water” as a symbol for the Spirit in John’s Gospel (John 7:37-39). Thus he is telling Nicodemus not that he will be saved by Jewish ritual immersion, but that he will be saved instead by a spiritual baptism by the Spirit, i.e., by the gift of God’s Spirit transforming his heart. All those who embrace Christ as savior become God’s children (John 1:12-13).



Jesus probably alludes in this context to the restoration promise of Ezekiel 36:25-27: God would sprinkle clean water on his people, put a new spirit in them, and give them his own Spirit. Thus, Jesus speaks of the spirit that is born from the Spirit (John 3:6). He goes on to compare God’s life-giving Spirit with the wind (3:8), just as in Ezekiel’s next chapter (Ezek 37:1-14).



God does not save us because we are Jewish or Gentile; God loves the entire world, including all peoples and cultures (John 3:16). All of us have sinned and left God’s way, but when we accept and trust the gift of God’s Son, he welcomes each of us as his children. May we labor until all know about him.



This is adapted from Craig’s 2005 article in the Missionary Seer; Craig has also authored The Gospel of John: A Commentary (Baker Academic), which received an award of merit in the Christianity Today book awards.

© Copyright Original Source

Source

When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is sure.

I respect Dr. Keener, but what he's saying here regarding similarities between Jewish ritual baths and early Christian baptism simply does not stand up to closer examination (see Dr. Everett Ferguson, Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries). From what I recall, it is rather unclear that Jews even practiced initiatory baptism of proselytes at the time; if they did, it is speculation at best to opine why they did so, and in any case it was self-administered and temporary (as it was certainly not the only ritual bath performed by Jews at the time).

[tabibito]

I respect Dr. Keener, but what he's saying here regarding similarities between Jewish ritual baths and early Christian baptism simply does not stand up to closer examination (see Dr. Everett Ferguson, Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries). From what I recall, it is rather unclear that Jews even practiced initiatory baptism of proselytes at the time; if they did, it is speculation at best to opine why they did so, and in any case it was self-administered and temporary (as it was certainly not the only ritual bath performed by Jews at the time).

As with so many things, this one is in dispute. Levine gives much the same story as Keener.

Levine Lee I., Jerusalem: Portrait of the City in the Second Temple Period (538 B.C.E. – 70 C.E.), Jewish Publication Society, 2002

[One Bad Pig]

Well I guess you are the one taking your chances.

Myself, I got baptized three times (OBP is mad about that seems to think it is frivolous) - I was baptized as an infant (mom was catholic) - then I lived a live without God until I was around 40. Then I finally got saved at my mom's baptist church in the boonies in another state from where I lived. Once I found a church home up here, I wanted to join. In order to become a member I either had to have a letter from my mom's church saying I was baptized, or I would have to get baptized again. It would not have been easy or quick to get the letter from my mom's church (not to mention my new church was nondenominational and my mom's church was old timey baptist and I was worried he wouldn't send the letter) so I got baptized again.

I think I am covered. Unless the anabaptists were correct, and then I am doomed.

I'm not mad about it - it just evinces a lower view of baptism is all.

[One Bad Pig]

As with so many things, this one is in dispute. Levine gives much the same story as Keener.

Levine Lee I., Jerusalem: Portrait of the City in the Second Temple Period (538 B.C.E. – 70 C.E.), Jewish Publication Society, 2002

Not having read Levine, I can't evaluate what he said about it. Ferguson goes into extensive detail - his tome is quite the doorstopper. And Ferguson is writing from a Protestant, if not Baptist, perspective.

[tabibito]

Not having read Levine, I can't evaluate what he said about it. Ferguson goes into extensive detail - his tome is quite the doorstopper. And Ferguson is writing from a Protestant, if not Baptist, perspective.

On the flimsy basis that nothing about baptism is explained in the gospels, I assume it was a familiar practice. However, I'm taking an agnostic stance pending the finding of a (relatively) non-religious write-up in an archaeology text.

[One Bad Pig]

How would we even know what our parents did unless they told us?

Meanwhile.....


[ATTACH=CONFIG]37252[/ATTACH]

I know an 8-year old who remembers being baptized at 1. It's not something I usually ask. IIRC George Blaisdell knew people who recalled being baptized as infants.