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Thread: Generation Y and Z Confirms Futurism is true

  1. #161
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    "Saints" is in this context:



    Then is proceeded by the fact that the Beast and his associates kills everyone not accepting the mark he's forcing on the whole populace. I'm not sure how from the entire context you get just two or less saints. In fact, I've never heard that interpretation before.
    Your reference was so vague that I thought you were referring to Revelation 11:7 which is about the two witnesses.

    Now that I know you're referring to Revelation 13:9-10, I can give a more proper response. Where does it say that all saints were killed? It just says that they were going to be subjugated, no statement that every single one died. I suppose someone could try to claim Revelation 13:8's statement that "all inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast" indicates that no one would be left who doesn't, but that seems to be contradindicated by the fact immediately afterwards it qualifies the statement with "all whose names have not been written in the Lambís book of life" and subsequent passages also indicate there would still be believers (Revelation 14:12, Revelation 18:4).

    As far as Jesus being "rhetorical," you need to explain what you mean. The context was once again about persecution and the fact he would return and avenge their persecution. I don't see why it was necessary to ask that question there if it was rhetorical, unless he was perhaps using hyperbole (not rhetoric) to actually describe how awful things would be for the church during the time he would return.
    I said the question was rhetorical/hypothetical, as in not making an actual statement that there would be no one left. In any case, it's exactly what you said, that it was hyperbole.

  2. #162
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Your reference was so vague that I thought you were referring to Revelation 11:7 which is about the two witnesses.

    Now that I know you're referring to Revelation 13:9-10, I can give a more proper response. Where does it say that all saints were killed? It just says that they were going to be subjugated, no statement that every single one died. I suppose someone could try to claim Revelation 13:8's statement that "all inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast" indicates that no one would be left who doesn't, but that seems to be contradindicated by the fact immediately afterwards it qualifies the statement with "all whose names have not been written in the Lambís book of life" and subsequent passages also indicate there would still be believers (Revelation 14:12, Revelation 18:4).

    I said the question was rhetorical/hypothetical, as in not making an actual statement that there would be no one left. In any case, it's exactly what you said, that it was hyperbole.
    I didn't say all Christians would be killed. I didn't even say that in the OP. I thought it was possible that Christianity as we know it now, would be wiped out due to a combination of persecution and falling away. That's been my argument since the beginning.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  3. #163
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I'm going to have to retract part of my earlier post. I had been conflating two Popes - John XII (who was reported to have toasted the devil and pagan gods while gambling), and Julius III (reported to have had an underage male lover). The report of Julius III seems likely, but the main source for the specific John XII came from an anti-Catholic interlocutor. In the absence of hard evidence, I'm going to have to retract that claim. It's still undisputed that John XII was immoral - even the Catholic Encyclopedia describes "a coarse, immoral man, whose life was such that the Lateran was spoken of as a brothel", but I cannot defend the specific claim I made about Satanism.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  4. Amen One Bad Pig, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  5. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I'm going to have to retract part of my earlier post. I had been conflating two Popes - John XII (who was reported to have toasted the devil and pagan gods while gambling), and Julius III (reported to have had an underage male lover). The report of Julius III seems likely, but the main source for the specific John XII came from an anti-Catholic interlocutor. In the absence of hard evidence, I'm going to have to retract that claim. It's still undisputed that John XII was immoral - even the Catholic Encyclopedia describes "a coarse, immoral man, whose life was such that the Lateran was spoken of as a brothel", but I cannot defend the specific claim I made about Satanism.
    It's the rampant pedophilia and systemic cover-up that does it for me. And it wasn't just pedophilia, which is bad enough, but the creepy religious symbolism behind many of the instances. To me that clearly reeks of the demonic.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  6. #165
    tWebber
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    Just one example to reflect the OP:

    I just graduated from St. Olaf College after receiving an education I didnít expect. Thatís because as a conservative at my small, Minnesota-based liberal arts institution, Iíve spent the last four years defending myself against personal and political attacks from professors and peers alike.

    The most recent example came in late April as the St. Olaf College Republicans hosted scholar Heather Mac Donald for a talk on her new book, ďThe Diversity Delusion: How Race and Gender Pandering Corrupt the University and Undermine Our Culture.Ē

    As chair of the group, I fielded many angry emails, including this from a theater professor: ďThis speaker is dangerous. Itís not about a difference in idealogical [sic] perspectives. This rhetoric is dangerous and puts my Black body in danger. This is antithetical to the St. Olaf mission statement. Iím not okay with thisÖ and you all shouldnít be either.Ē Several more professors emailed similar sentiments.

    source
    I argue that this will intensify exponentially in 10-20 years, but this stuff is happening now. There's no logical reason to think this will just pass as a cultural fad. And, apparently from the article, this is the result of a political perspective. Imagine what would happen to a Christian arguing against aberrant behavior like homosexuality, and that we need repentance for such sins, that Christ is returning to conquer sinners. This person would have gotten physically attacked, I'm sure.
    Last edited by seanD; 07-06-2019 at 10:35 AM.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  7. #166
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    The idea that Christianity on earth would be extinguished is refuted by Matthew 16:18, when Jesus said "On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
    Does that verse rule out the possibility that Christianity will be obliterated for a while, and then be revived ? I see nothing in that verse to encourage the Church to suppose it will never, and can never, die out. Nothing else on Earth is exempt from change, decay and extinction - and I cannot see anything in the Bible to suggest that the Church is exempt from that law. It is easy to think of the Church dying out - and then, after a lapse of centuries, a non-Christian discovering an old Bible, reading it, and (by the Grace of God) being converted to Christ. And from such a conversion, the Church might grow up all over again. Such an occurrence would ISTM fulfil those words of Christ perfectly adequately. If Christianity does not die, how can it be resurrected ? Death may be exactly what it needs.

  8. #167
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    Does that verse rule out the possibility that Christianity will be obliterated for a while, and then be revived ? I see nothing in that verse to encourage the Church to suppose it will never, and can never, die out. Nothing else on Earth is exempt from change, decay and extinction - and I cannot see anything in the Bible to suggest that the Church is exempt from that law. It is easy to think of the Church dying out - and then, after a lapse of centuries, a non-Christian discovering an old Bible, reading it, and (by the Grace of God) being converted to Christ. And from such a conversion, the Church might grow up all over again. Such an occurrence would ISTM fulfil those words of Christ perfectly adequately. If Christianity does not die, how can it be resurrected ? Death may be exactly what it needs.
    So, essentially you're a post-tribulation, perhaps even a post-millennial Catholic. Not unheard of, I suppose, but I imagine not common.

  9. #168
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    So, essentially you're a post-tribulation, perhaps even a post-millennial Catholic. Not unheard of, I suppose, but I imagine not common.
    Probably not My understanding is that the CC is amillennial, but not atribulational. So, Earthly 1000-year Reign of Christ - no; but, Great Tribulation (of some unstated duration) - yes.

    My concern is the (mainly negative ?) one, not to go beyond what the text can plausibly be supposed to mean in context, thatís all. I donít trust the idea that the Church - however understood - always prevails over all circumstances; partly because this seems to be bad history, & also because I see nothing in the text to rule out the possibility that the Church will prevail, not by winning every battle, but by being enabled to win the war; however bloodied and battered it may have become in the process. If Christ was not above suffering death, I see no reason why the Church cannot also suffer death; and be raised from death, even as He was.

    As long as the Church prevails from Christís POV, its historical condition, and appearance to men, is not too important. The thing to remember about St Matthew 16.13-19 is that its purpose is to reveal Christ - the Church, and St Peter, are not the passageís main concern. To put things the other way round: a Church that may look very prosperous and strong and powerful, can appear these things, humanly speaking, and yet - from Christís POV - be very weak and feeble and wretched.

  10. #169
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Well, I think you'll get no argument that the Church will prevail from Christ's point of view. I don't take much stock in pre/post/ or amillennial views. What will happen will happen, regardless of Protestant or Catholic opinion. Are we heading towards a time of Tribulation, I think that's probably a reality, but Christ is in control, and the Father's Will will be done, regardless.

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