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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    You do bring up a good point. If there ever was such a thing as a technocratic dictatorship, it's definitely in China. They pretty much have gone full blown dystopian nightmare. Though I don't know much about the nuances of Christianity there, from what little I've read, churches are allowed as long as they remain under the control of the state. I could be wrong though. Also, again without knowing the social structure in China, it could be an entirely different culture than the aggressive leftist intolerant culture that bullies everyone in the west, and for some strange reason, has powerful influence.
    Yes, China is certainly a very different culture than ours. I'm not sure how to translate their experience to us.

    From what I understand, there are two different church groups in China: the official and the underground. As you said, the official is tolerated as long as it remains subordinated to the state. I don't know what kind of theological compromises result. I'm sure any member is monitored and their advancement at work and society is curtailed. I'll bet none of them have any position of power or authority.

    Then there is the underground church. I perceive them as trying to worship God and the Chinese state viewing them as some form of traitor. These are the people you may hear about getting years in reeducation camps for practicing their beliefs.

    Despite the cultural and political differences, I think a study of how both Chinese church groups work would be valuable. We might be getting a glimpse of the future of the church in the USA.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Doubtful, IMO. There are plenty of churches which fit that description now, but those are the ones which are hemorrhaging members. It's those who are least committed to the ideal which are most likely to ditch it entirely when it becomes inconvenient.
      Many churches are losing members these days. It doesn't seem to matter whether liberal, conservative, or middle-of-the-road. And these get the attention because they try to influence society. I suggest the social church doesn't care about influencing society and therefore has escaped notice.

      To my mind, these are the traits of a social club church:

      • God's only attribute is love.
      • Love is the cover for all actions. Your belief is on the lines of "God loves us therefore He approves of anything we do."
      • Don't teach or preach anything resembling having a relationship with God. In fact, the less mention of God, the better.
      • Generally speaking, never preach or teach on the following topics: sin, conviction, hell, repentance, salvation, suffering, denial of self, self-sacrifice, evangelism, (and I'm sure there's more...)
      • Recite the Bible in service but don't actually preach or teach it.
      • Focus on teachings that make the audience feel good with their lives.
      • Avoid taking a stand on any issue. If necessary, go with the popular point of view.
      • Do good works but make them easy on the congregation.
      • The expectations of membership are low.
      • Congregational care will be minimal.
      • What care is provided will be more along the lines of free therapy that will be empty of God.
      • Have lots of activities so the members stay busy. They don't have to have a spiritual component.
      • The justification for the church is "we existed for 40, 50, or more years so we should continue."


      After looking this over, I suggest a liberal church is interested in changing lives and society while a social club church wants to have a good time.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        After looking this over, I suggest a liberal church is interested in changing lives and society while a social club church wants to have a good time.
        Or, it could just be that they wanna "play church" and "feel good" without any of the not-so-fun stuff like repentance or guilt or preaching against sin --- having a form of godliness, they deny the power thereof.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
          Many churches are losing members these days. It doesn't seem to matter whether liberal, conservative, or middle-of-the-road. And these get the attention because they try to influence society. I suggest the social church doesn't care about influencing society and therefore has escaped notice.

          To my mind, these are the traits of a social club church:

          • God's only attribute is love.
          • Love is the cover for all actions. Your belief is on the lines of "God loves us therefore He approves of anything we do."
          • Don't teach or preach anything resembling having a relationship with God. In fact, the less mention of God, the better.
          • Generally speaking, never preach or teach on the following topics: sin, conviction, hell, repentance, salvation, suffering, denial of self, self-sacrifice, evangelism, (and I'm sure there's more...)
          • Recite the Bible in service but don't actually preach or teach it.
          • Focus on teachings that make the audience feel good with their lives.
          • Avoid taking a stand on any issue. If necessary, go with the popular point of view.
          • Do good works but make them easy on the congregation.
          • The expectations of membership are low.
          • Congregational care will be minimal.
          • What care is provided will be more along the lines of free therapy that will be empty of God.
          • Have lots of activities so the members stay busy. They don't have to have a spiritual component.
          • The justification for the church is "we existed for 40, 50, or more years so we should continue."


          After looking this over, I suggest a liberal church is interested in changing lives and society while a social club church wants to have a good time.
          It does matter, actually. Mainline churches are quite obviously declining in membership. Conservative churches like Baptists are either holding steady or growing.

          There isn't a whole lot of difference, as far as I can tell, between 'liberal' and 'social club'. That's my experience, anyway. I disagree that a liberal church is particularly interested in changing lives (of its parishioners, at any rate).
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            Many churches are losing members these days. It doesn't seem to matter whether liberal, conservative, or middle-of-the-road. And these get the attention because they try to influence society. I suggest the social church doesn't care about influencing society and therefore has escaped notice.

            To my mind, these are the traits of a social club church:

            • God's only attribute is love.
            • Love is the cover for all actions. Your belief is on the lines of "God loves us therefore He approves of anything we do."
            • Don't teach or preach anything resembling having a relationship with God. In fact, the less mention of God, the better.
            • Generally speaking, never preach or teach on the following topics: sin, conviction, hell, repentance, salvation, suffering, denial of self, self-sacrifice, evangelism, (and I'm sure there's more...)
            • Recite the Bible in service but don't actually preach or teach it.
            • Focus on teachings that make the audience feel good with their lives.
            • Avoid taking a stand on any issue. If necessary, go with the popular point of view.
            • Do good works but make them easy on the congregation.
            • The expectations of membership are low.
            • Congregational care will be minimal.
            • What care is provided will be more along the lines of free therapy that will be empty of God.
            • Have lots of activities so the members stay busy. They don't have to have a spiritual component.
            • The justification for the church is "we existed for 40, 50, or more years so we should continue."


            After looking this over, I suggest a liberal church is interested in changing lives and society while a social club church wants to have a good time.
            I do not believe that social-club congregations have much of a problem in maintaining a belief in some kind of amorphous deity. That said, you will likely hear more reference to a god (generically defined) than Christ in such settings. (‘God’ is a more neutral, less offensive term.) However, even in a largely Christ-less context, portions of Jesus’ teachings may be used (falsely) to urge upon the hearers refrainment from judgement and for the purpose of stressing discontinuity between the Old and New Testaments. Scripture can therefore be largely ignored or viewed apart from the consideration of context.

            Furthermore, in my estimation, the undermining of scriptural authority is being (and will be) accomplished rather well, wittingly or unwittingly, by the progressive acceptance and promotion of evolutionary thought by teachers in Christian circles, thus effectively disproving the reliability of scripture in relation to the origin of humankind (specifically the historicity of our first parents) and, by implication, sexual ethics. The story of redemption thus loses its coherence as the creational accounts of scripture are reduced to pre-/non-scientific allegories or ‘poetry’ which bear no essential relation to actual, historical events.
            For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Option 3. Christ returns!
              Christ cannot return until a "way is prepared for" Him in the desert. Elijah must restore all things first, as the Lord says Himself. Wishful thinking has no place in a Christian.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                The idea that Christianity on earth would be extinguished is refuted by Matthew 16:18, when Jesus said "On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
                Luke 18:8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                  Christ cannot return until a "way is prepared for" Him in the desert. Elijah must restore all things first, as the Lord says Himself. Wishful thinking has no place in a Christian.
                  That was before the Mandela Effect. Now Christ will return when no one expects him.

                  "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father... Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with the hand mill; one will be taken and the other left... Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come" (Matthew 24:36, 40, 42).
                  Last edited by Sparko; 06-18-2019, 10:51 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    Luke 18:8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"
                    From Matthew 16:18, I think the answer is "yes"

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      That was before the Mandela Effect. Now Christ will return when no one expects him.

                      "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father... Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with the hand mill; one will be taken and the other left... Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come" (Matthew 24:36, 40, 42).
                      Day or hour is not "week" or year. No one knows the exact day of the harvest, but you know the season.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        From Matthew 16:18, I think the answer is "yes"
                        So you're of the opinion that the Lord asks dumb rhetorical questions. Sounds about right for you. Obviously He meant that the elect will be few when the days are shortened for them.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                          So you're of the opinion that the Lord asks dumb rhetorical questions. Sounds about right for you. Obviously He meant that the elect will be few when the days are shortened for them.
                          It was obviously a hyperbolic statement Darfy.

                          And the 'prepare a way in the desert' was referring to Jesus' first coming and the Elijah was John the Baptist.

                          We don't know when Christ will return. It could be at any time. That is why he said, "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come"

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            It was obviously a hyperbolic statement Darfy.

                            And the 'prepare a way in the desert' was referring to Jesus' first coming and the Elijah was John the Baptist.

                            We don't know when Christ will return. It could be at any time. That is why he said, "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come"
                            And that's exactly why I am a panmillenialist.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              And that's exactly why I am a panmillenialist.
                              I am of the opinion that I will either meet Jesus when he comes back here, or I will go meet him when I die and come down with him when he returns. Either way is fine with me. And either way I will be with him soon.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I am of the opinion that I will either meet Jesus when he comes back here, or I will go meet him when I die and come down with him when he returns. Either way is fine with me. And either way I will be with him soon.
                                Yes, it will all "pan out" in the end! The key is - STAY READY!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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