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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Generation Y and Z Confirms Futurism is true

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    It was obviously a hyperbolic statement Darfy.

    And the 'prepare a way in the desert' was referring to Jesus' first coming and the Elijah was John the Baptist.

    We don't know when Christ will return. It could be at any time. That is why he said, "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come"
    Hyperbolic to what point? Why suggest that faith may not be present when He returns unless He meant to indicate such a fierce persecution of the saints that faith would all but disappear from the earth, as Daniel and Revelation suggests (it was given power to the beast to make war with the saints and overcome them)?

    John the Baptist was one fulfillment of Elijah, but Jesus spoke in the future tense when He said the next Elijah would restore all things. John the Baptist had already died. You and most other so called Christians are woefully ignorant as to the fact that Satan is the god of this world and his kingdom must be overthrown--from within and without--before the thief (Christ) can rob him (the devil) of his goods (us and the earth). In other words, we will have to prove our faith with deeds, something most so called Christians are terrified of doing, hence the so called.

    The reason Christ spoke ambiguously or parabolically about the timing of His return is the same reason God speaks parabolically all throughout Scripture, to hide the fullness of the truth from sleepy eyed "disciples" who don't really care to seek it with all their minds, hearts and souls while revealing it to those who do. We are always to keep watch, but "when these things begin to take place, look up, for your redemption draws near."

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      Hyperbolic to what point? Why suggest that faith may not be present when He returns unless He meant to indicate such a fierce persecution of the saints that faith would all but disappear from the earth, as Daniel and Revelation suggests (it was given power to the beast to make war with the saints and overcome them)?

      John the Baptist was one fulfillment of Elijah, but Jesus spoke in the future tense when He said the next Elijah would restore all things. John the Baptist had already died. You and most other so called Christians are woefully ignorant as to the fact that Satan is the god of this world and his kingdom must be overthrown--from within and without--before the thief (Christ) can rob him (the devil) of his goods (us and the earth). In other words, we will have to prove our faith with deeds, something most so called Christians are terrified of doing, hence the so called.
      What are you even talking about? Jesus was interpreting Malachi and speaking in the same tense as the verse.

      (10) And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" (11) Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. (12) But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." (13) Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

      You are a paranoid moron Darfius and can't read a simple verse without trying to turn it into some conspiracy theory. The only woefully ignorant one here is you.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        What are you even talking about? Jesus was interpreting Malachi and speaking in the same tense as the verse.

        (10) And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" (11) Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. (12) But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." (13) Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

        You are a paranoid moron Darfius and can't read a simple verse without trying to turn it into some conspiracy theory. The only woefully ignorant one here is you.
        You forgot to answer why Jesus implied faith would be sorely lacking when He returned, in contrast to the preterist fantasy that Christianity will "convert the world."

        What "all things" did John the Baptist "restore?" Simple verse, eh? John the Baptist was the Elijah for Jesus' first coming. There will be an Elijah who will precede His 2nd coming, who will "turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse."

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          You forgot to answer why Jesus implied faith would be sorely lacking when He returned, in contrast to the preterist fantasy that Christianity will "convert the world."

          What "all things" did John the Baptist "restore?" Simple verse, eh? John the Baptist was the Elijah for Jesus' first coming. There will be an Elijah who will precede His 2nd coming, who will "turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse."



          OK I am putting you back on virtual ignore until I need some more entertainment. Yawn.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post



            OK I am putting you back on virtual ignore until I need some more entertainment. Yawn.
            And another one bites the dust.

            Comment


            • #66
              2 Thess 2:1-3 We beg you brothers not to be shaken ... by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here ... for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first ...

              So - it would seem that Luke 18:8 doesn't stand alone, and then there is an ambiguous further reference:

              4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

              But none of these declare a failure arising from persecution. The circumstances could even arise from syncretism.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                2 Thess 2:1-3 We beg you brothers not to be shaken ... by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here ... for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first ...

                So - it would seem that Luke 18:8 doesn't stand alone, and then there is an ambiguous further reference:

                4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

                But none of these declare a failure arising from persecution. The circumstances could even arise from syncretism.
                God always keeps a remnant.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  God always keeps a remnant.
                  True, that.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I think the obvious takeaway is that things are going to get so horrific -- much, much more horrific than we're even seeing now -- that it would be nothing short of a miracle if there was a surviving remnant that was left in the aftermath. Which is just more evidence that affirms futurism in spades.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      I think the obvious takeaway is that things are going to get so horrific -- much, much more horrific than we're even seeing now -- that it would be nothing short of a miracle if there was a surviving remnant that was left in the aftermath. Which is just more evidence that affirms futurism in spades.
                      Well, there's an air-tight argument if I've ever seen one. Have you considered providing said evidence?
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Pretty sure even the ancient Greeks claimed that young people were worse than they were. Things used to be much worse. The evil is just harder to hide now days.
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Pretty sure even the ancient Greeks claimed that young people were worse than they were.
                          I've heard that about ancient Greece, and Rome too, come to that. The question that needs answering - what happened to those societies?
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Well, there's an air-tight argument if I've ever seen one. Have you considered providing said evidence?
                            I was directing my comment more towards the exchange between tabibito and Sparko. Though tabibito brought up some good passages (post #66), he pretty much downplayed the persecution aspect of those passages. So I would refer him to the passage in Rev about the Beast making war with the saints and overcoming them along with those passages he pointed out, which pretty much definitively shows persecution's grave effect on the church in the end times.

                            I'm not sure what tabibto's eschatological view is, but I already know you're firmly a preterist, so it would be pointless for us to engage in any further discussion about it, and that's why I was focusing on the last few posts before mine.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              I'm not sure what tabibto's eschatological view is, but I already know you're firmly a preterist, so it would be pointless for us to engage in any further discussion about it, and that's why I was focusing on the last few posts before mine.
                              I have always been and remain committed to following where the evidence leads. Preterism makes the best sense of the available data as I currently understand it, so that's the position I hold. I will continue to hold it absent more compelling arguments for a competing view. If discussion with me were as pointless as you allege, I'd still be a dispensational futurist attending the local independent fundamental Baptist church.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                I have always been and remain committed to following where the evidence leads. Preterism makes the best sense of the available data as I currently understand it, so that's the position I hold. I will continue to hold it absent more compelling arguments for a competing view. If discussion with me were as pointless as you allege, I'd still be a dispensational futurist attending the local independent fundamental Baptist church.
                                "All prophecy has happened except the good parts" makes sense, huh? I bet it also makes sense to you that two planes can bring down three steel buildings. I despise cowards. As does the Lord.

                                Comment

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