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Teaching liberals about white privilege makes them blame poor whites more

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    Or maybe do away with the whole divisive "them and us" culture and affirm people as people?

    Nah ... never happen. Too many people demanding the opportunity to get offended, even if they have to manufacture their own excuses to do it.
    I don't see this as an either/or proposition. Understanding social dynamics is an important part of arriving at solutions. When you have groups (and you always do) you have the potential for systemic unbalance to develop between those groups. Studying it, learning about it, and educating about it is the only way I can think of to address those issues. That does not have to mean people are not appreciated or affirmed as people - and it does have to be done with an eye towards avoiding "us/them" thinking that has become far too common today.

    The dynamic described in the OP is reflected in many places in our country. The "land of opportunity" mantra that has been so long a part of our culture is just as likely to be divisive. After all, if this is the land where "anyone can make it," clearly someone who has NOT made it is simply not trying or doesn't want to or is too lazy, right? We've heard this reflected many times - and it's a variant of us/them thinking.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      That's one of my main issues with "privilege" talk in general: if we treat individuals as individuals, I don't see why it's necessary in the first place.
      Individuals can be more or less privileged. Groups can be more or less privileged. I don't see the problem.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Individuals can be more or less privileged. Groups can be more or less privileged. I don't see the problem.
        Should we cancel paying the ransom cause you escaped?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Why do we assume that 'privilege' (whatever that actually means) is automatically a bad thing. It's not like everyone is, or can be, exactly the same.

          Surely what matters is what you do with what you've got.
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
            Why do we assume that 'privilege' (whatever that actually means) is automatically a bad thing. It's not like everyone is, or can be, exactly the same.

            Surely what matters is what you do with what you've got.
            EGGzackly!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              "Privilege" as it is used today, is just a concept invented by Identity Politics as a way to be bigoted against people they don't like while pretending to be all for inclusivity and equality.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Should we cancel paying the ransom cause you escaped?
                Nahh... send the check anyway!
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                  Why do we assume that 'privilege' (whatever that actually means) is automatically a bad thing.
                  AFAICT, it's not.

                  Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                  It's not like everyone is, or can be, exactly the same.
                  Agreed

                  Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                  Surely what matters is what you do with what you've got.
                  That is true. However, if "what you've got" is limited for systemic reasons that are going unaddressed, that is a problem. That is when individuals and groups can become disenfranchised and placed at a continuous, perpetuating disadvantage. That is the form of privilege I think we should be alert for, and seek to counter. History is full of examples.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    "Privilege" as it is used today, is just a concept invented by Identity Politics as a way to be bigoted against people they don't like while pretending to be all for inclusivity and equality.
                    Identity politics is widespread on both the right and left, for both Republicans and Democrats. It differs in focus, but not substantially in kind.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Identity politics is widespread on both the right and left, for both Republicans and Democrats. It differs in focus, but not substantially in kind.
                      Can you give me an example?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Identity politics is widespread on both the right and left, for both Republicans and Democrats. It differs in focus, but not substantially in kind.
                        It's the way of the future!

                        (Not that that's a good thing, but it's where things are heading, IMHO)
                        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Can you give me an example?
                          For many on the right, the focus is commonly the disenfranchised working class, or the abused Christians being denied their freedoms, or the left-behind whites assailed by the affects of programs like Affirmative Action. It's about "those liberals" and their country-destroying policies and how they have to be fought at every turn. In my experience, most on the right identify groups, label them, and then attributes the characteristics of that group to anyone who has one or more of those attributes - which is essentially what the left does. The politics are no more or less "identity." It's just the focus of the identities have changed. But "identity politics" has become a cudgel many on the right use to essentially dismiss arguments and points being made by those on the left. It scores political points and rallies the faithful - all the while ignoring the fact that identity politics is how pretty much everyone engages.
                          Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-06-2019, 01:07 PM.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                            It's the way of the future!

                            (Not that that's a good thing, but it's where things are heading, IMHO)
                            I'd be curious to know when you think American politics were NOT about identity, Max. I don't see any fundamental shift in politics. I just see the power of creating a label (e.g., "identity politics"), defining it as a "bad thing," and then wielding it defensively anytime something not agreed with is said or written.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              For many on the right, the focus is commonly the disenfranchised working class, or the abused Christians being denied their freedoms, or the left-behind whites assailed by the affects of programs like Affirmative Action. It's about "those liberals" and their country-destroying policies and how they have to be fought at every turn. In my experience, most on the right identify groups, label them, and then attributes the characteristics of that group to anyone who has one or more of those attributes - which is essentially what the left does. The politics are no more or less "identity." It's just the focus of the identities have changed. But "identity politics" has become a cudgel many on the right use to essentially dismiss arguments and points being made by those on the left. It scores political points and rallies the faithful - all the while ignoring the fact that identity politics is how pretty much everyone engages.
                              I don't think that is Identity Politics as the left uses it. That is just human nature.

                              To be clearer what I have a problem with is a particular form of Identity politics known as "intersectionality" which is about assigning various point values to different classes of victims so that say, being a black woman automatically puts you ahead of say a black man, who is higher on the ladder than a white woman, who is higher than a white man. It is a way to categorize victimhood and social ranking.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                I don't think that is Identity Politics as the left uses it. That is just human nature.
                                I'm not surprised, Sparko. I wasn't exactly expecting "you're right!"

                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                To be clearer what I have a problem with is a particular form of Identity politics known as "intersectionality" which is about assigning various point values to different classes of victims so that say, being a black woman automatically puts you ahead of say a black man, who is higher on the ladder than a white woman, who is higher than a white man. It is a way to categorize victimhood and social ranking.
                                I don't know of a single person who assigns "points" in the way you describe. I had never heard of "intersectionality" until you used it in your response, so I did a bit of digging. The term doesn't appear to mean anything other than the somewhat obvious (to me) observation that people are usually advantaged and/or disadvantaged by multiple overlapping factors - not just one over-arching factor. That's one source, but pretty much all of the sources I accessed said essentially the same thing.

                                And I don't see how acknowledging multiple influencing factors in an individual's or group's level of privilege/disadvantage is any different from what the right does. They discuss the multiple ways their various class memberships are being "harassed" or "disadvantaged" - by anti-Christian bigots or legislation (Christian identity), by programs promoting Affirmative Action (white identity), or by policies disenfranchising the working class (economic identity), and the list goes on. How many of those identities a person has suggests how many of those bandwagons they're going to climb on.

                                As I said - a difference in detail - but not in kind. Politics is about identity. It always has been. People with a common concern (i.e., identity) band together to fight against things that oppress them, or for things that benefit them. The Revolutionary War was about identity. Gandhi was about identity. MLK was about identity. WWII was about identity. The wars against Native Americans were about identity. The list goes on and on and on.

                                ETA: I was curious about just how mainstream this comment is, so I started an informal poll on my Facebook page. Only three responses so far with two "never heard of it" and one "it's pretty mainstream." The latter was from a woman who learned about it in a masters-level class in a program for an MS in Human Resources and Organization Development. Not a scientific study, mind you, but I'll be interested to see the results.
                                Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-06-2019, 05:10 PM.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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