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Thread: In the Beginning was Information.

  1. #131
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rossum View Post
    The mechanism is how the original mutation is inherited in the offspring of the initial carrier. Does the mutation result in an increased number of inherited copies (a beneficial mutation), the average number of inherited copies (a neutral mutation) or a decreased number of inherited copies (a deleterious mutation). The process works like compound interest.

    As an example, take a stable population of 1000 organisms; on average each organism has one descendant in the next generation. Now let a beneficial mutation appear with a 1% advantage, so the mutated organism will have on average 1.01 descendants in the next generation. For comparison I include ten other mutated organism with a 1% disadvantage. Start with a population of 10 deleterious, 989 neutral (or unmutated) and 1 beneficial mutations. See what happens if we let the population reproduce for one thousand generations:
    Code:
    Generation  Deleterious   Neutral   Beneficial
    ----------  -----------   ------    ----------
         0         10.0       989.00          1.00
         1          9.9       989.00          1.01
        10          9.0       989.00          1.10
       100          3.7       989.00          2.70
       500          0.1       989.00        144.77
       700          0.0       989.00       1059.16
      1000          0.0       989.00      20959.16
    That is why beneficial mutations are more common overall. They are rare initially, but they are amplified and spread by natural selection. You can also see that the deleterious mutations are eliminated and do not spread, despite being more common initially.

    This is a very simple model and easy to set up on a spreadsheet, but it is enough to show the advantage natural selection gives a beneficial mutation and how it spreads through a population over the generations.
    Compound interest?

    Wow.

    Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation. After all, if the situation never occurs, then how can the beneficial mutation be selected (how can you claim it will have more offspring)?.

    Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?

    You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.

    Simple model? More like a simple minded model.

  2. #132
    tWebber HMS_Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    Compound interest?

    Wow.

    Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation. After all, if the situation never occurs, then how can the beneficial mutation be selected (how can you claim it will have more offspring)?.

    Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?

    You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.

    Simple model? More like a simple minded model.
    Rossum provided you with a simple mathematical example of how differential reproductive success works in evolution and you can't even understand that. Wow indeed.

    I take it you're not going to try and defend Meyer's "Darwin's Doubt" stupidity about the Cambrian explosion, right?

  3. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  4. #133
    tWebber rossum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    Compound interest?
    No, not "compound interest" but "like compound interest". You failure to read what I posted is down to you, not to me.

    Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation.
    Again, you fail to read what I posted. I said, "the mutated organism will have on average 1.01 descendants in the next generation". Do you not understand the meaning of "on average"?

    Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?
    Now for a difficult mathematical question. If we add a 1% advantage and subtract a 1% disadvantage then what is the overall average (yes, that word again) result? Take as long as you want, there is no time limit.

    You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.
    Did you understand the definition of a "beneficial" mutation? It is a mutation which on average passes more copies of itself into future generations than the average. If it didn't then it wouldn't be beneficial, by definition.

  5. #134
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
    Compound interest?

    Wow.

    Where are your calculations on the likelihood that a beneficial mutation will be the difference between life and death for the organism with the beneficial mutation compared with the other organisms without the mutation. After all, if the situation never occurs, then how can the beneficial mutation be selected (how can you claim it will have more offspring)?.

    Also, where are your calculations on the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial mutation will also have a competing deleterious mutation? Suppose a bunny with a 1% improvement in vision is also 1% less agile than a normal bunny?

    You simply assign a 1% increase in offspring and call it a day.

    Simple model? More like a simple minded model.
    Why don't you show us that your model isn't at least as simple-minded by producing the equivalent calculations under ID? E.g. your calculation for the likelihood that an organism with a beneficial design feature will also have some compensating detriment.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

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