Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: John 1:1-4 - A new translation

  1. #1
    tWebber Georg Kaplin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    34
    Amen (Given)
    1
    Amen (Received)
    0

    John 1:1-4 - A new translation

    This is my own personal translation. Comments are welcomed.


    J 1:1 The Word was in the beginning; And so [1] the Word was with God and so the Word was divine. This one was with God in the beginning.

    All things were made [2] through the personal agency of [3] the Word, and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else.

    But the life that was the light of men was made [4] in him [5].

    ------
    [1] Και, “and so” J 1:1 - The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Frederick William Danker (Danker)
    [2] Or “God made all things” - Louw-Nida χωρις: It would be wrong to restructure Jn 1.3 to read 'he made everything in all creation,' for in the Scriptures God is spoken of as the Creator, but the creation was done 'through the Word
    [3] Ibid, Danker, δια, personal agency, J 1:3 [4] By God
    [5] in, by means of the Word
    Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 06-03-2019 at 09:31 AM.
    Two new papers on Greek Exegesis:
    https://independent.academia.edu/GeorgKaplin

  2. #2
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    55,321
    Amen (Given)
    12055
    Amen (Received)
    25717
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  3. #3
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sagittarius Arm
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,056
    Amen (Given)
    239
    Amen (Received)
    496
    I'll stick with the NASB, except maybe the word order in the last part of verse 1: "and GOD was the Word". I like how the Greek puts the emphasis in the word order.

  4. Amen mikewhitney amen'd this post.
  5. #4
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoCal!!!
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,741
    Amen (Given)
    293
    Amen (Received)
    638
    It is good to see the confirmation of the Trinity here, isn't it?

    Some people have sought to obscure Christ Jesus as a unique person within the Trinity godhead. But such efforts lose traction rather quickly.

    This passage is interesting because the Divinity of Christ is presented in a fashion unique from the OT psalm which says "you are as gods."

  6. #5
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    DownUnder
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,958
    Amen (Given)
    202
    Amen (Received)
    852
    J 1:1 The Word was in the beginning;
    εν αρχη ην ο λογος - ην being imperfect and most properly is understood as "had continuing existence" (or more literally "In the beginning the word was being"). Implicit in ην - was already in existence at the time spoken of.

    And so [1] the Word was with God and so the Word was divine.
    και θεος ην ο λογος - Two nominative nouns sharing the same verb, again "ην" - was being. Logos: according to other posts by you, this "o" should be pointing to a previously introduced or known figure, with any antecedent being either the same or synonymous. Oh - that would be θεος. "Divine?" No contextual reference lends itself to divine for this passage: nothing points to the Logos as being no more than a personage worthy of reverence.
    This one was with God in the beginning.
    ουτος ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον - "this one" or "he" was (being) in the beginning with (in the presence of) God. ην declares that "being" arose before the time spoken of, so "he already was" is an acceptable understanding.

    All things were made [2] through the personal agency of [3] the Word, and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else.
    As an expositional rendering it works.

    But the life that was the light of men was made [4] in him [5].
    εν αυτω (DTV) ζωη (NOM) ην: Life had continuing existence in him
    και: and, moreover, also
    η ζωη (NOM) ην το φως (NOM) των ανθρωπων: And here - two nouns with articles separated by and sharing the same verb ... which frequently indicates a metaphorical usage for the second noun in the pair. The life was (one way or another) the light of men.
    ------
    [1] Και, “and so” J 1:1 - The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Frederick William Danker (Danker)
    I'll accept that και can mean "and so" - I only have the abridged TDNT, which doesn't include a write-up on και, and LSJ doesn't list "and so" as an interpretation. However, BDAG lists "and so" as possible in the context of outcome from an action, a context that is not evident here.

    [2] Or “God made all things” - Louw-Nida χωρις: It would be wrong to restructure Jn 1.3 to read 'he made everything in all creation,' for in the Scriptures God is spoken of as the Creator, but the creation was done 'through the Word.'
    ?? John 1:3B says just that: without him nothing was made that came to be. 1 Cor 8:6 cannot be ignored, Colossians 1:16-17 doesn't stand alone, but its ambiguity is resolved by John 1:3B and 1 Cor 8:6.
    Last edited by tabibito; 06-03-2019 at 11:43 AM.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  7. Amen mikewhitney amen'd this post.
  8. #6
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoCal!!!
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,741
    Amen (Given)
    293
    Amen (Received)
    638
    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    I'll stick with the NASB, except maybe the word order in the last part of verse 1: "and GOD was the Word". I like how the Greek puts the emphasis in the word order.
    I missed your point until I reread your post. The emphasis on God shows the equivalence of both but may lend toward a priority shown in the paraphrase "God, who is the Word." I wonder if the reverse order has been used in English translations for the purpose of promoting sort of a symmetry in the positioning of 'the Word.'

    Another thought...
    Maybe apart from using the word order as conventional in translation history, the English ordering of "Word was God" may be due to a convention of giving priority position to the thing being identified. In John 1, it is the Word being described or identified, instead of the God being described or identified.
    Maybe in a related convention, we present (in the English) the thing of interest first and then follow that with an attribute. So we say that God is Love -- which shows Love as an attribute (but, here, maybe an essence).
    Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-03-2019 at 12:24 PM.

  9. #7
    tWebber Georg Kaplin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    34
    Amen (Given)
    1
    Amen (Received)
    0
    Tabitito,
    The gloss of "and so" is certainly the most unique part of my translation. I have attached the entry for και from Danker's Concise Lexicon. Danker was the senior editor for BDAG and the author of this lexicon.

    DANKER-J11-KAI.jpg

    It's not that the sense of "and so" is merely possible, but that Danker says that that is what it means specifically at John 1:1.

    Here is a section in BDAG which has "and so."
    ζ. to introduce a result that comes fr. what precedes: and then, and so Mt 5:15; 23:32; Mk 8:34; 2 Cor 11:9; Hb 3:19; 1J 3:19. καὶ ἔχομεν and so we have 2 Pt 1:19. Esp. after the impv., or expr. of an imperatival nature (Soph., Oed. Col. 1410ff θέσθε … καὶ …οἴσει, El. 1207; Sir 2:6; 3:17) δεῦτε ὀπίσω μου καὶ ποιήσω and then I will make Mt 4:19.εἰπὲ λόγῳ,κ. ἰαθήσεται ὁ παῖς μου speak the word, and then my servant will be cured Mt 8:8; Lk 7:7; cp. Mt 7:7; Mk 6:22; Lk 10:28; J 14:16; Js 4:7, 10; Rv 4:1.—καί introduces a short clause that confirms the existence of someth. that ought to be:ἵνα τέκνα θεοῦ κληθῶμεν, καὶ ἐσμέν that we should be called children of God; and so we really are (καλέω 1d) 1J 3:1 (Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 40 §161 they were to conquer Sardinia, καὶ κατέλαβον=and they really took it; 4, 127 §531 one day would decide [κρίνειν] the fate of Rome,καὶ ἐκρίθη).
    You said:
    'However, BDAG lists "and so" as possible in the context of outcome from an action, a context that is not evident here.'

    But, I don't see anything about an "action." Is that the section you got this from?

    I wanted to explore, "and so" because that is the gloss Danker selected. The Concise Lexicon is probably the most recent high quality Greek Lexicon available to us. It also highlights something that I believe most people miss in this verse, in fact I missed it for years. Many assume that John 1:1 is one state. The verb ειμι is a stative verb. But it occurs three times, and και separates it into three states, not one. So one may not assume that what is described in John 1:1c was true at John 1:1a.

    That's enough for now.
    Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 06-03-2019 at 04:01 PM.
    Two new papers on Greek Exegesis:
    https://independent.academia.edu/GeorgKaplin

  10. #8
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoCal!!!
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,741
    Amen (Given)
    293
    Amen (Received)
    638
    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
    This is my own personal translation. Comments are welcomed.
    ...
    All things were made [2] through the personal agency of [3] the Word, and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else.
    ...
    It would seem that your explication pushes things in a funny direction ...
    ".. and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else ..."

    The idea conveyed would be that there was nothing created that was not through (the agency of Christ). But this exclusionary concept doesn't exclude 'God', as treated as the superset of the Trinity, being involved in creation. This is like the parallel in Proverbs 8 where creation with initiated through Wisdom -- it is the idea that nothing was created without God's wisdom at work.

    I would suspect that this aspect was the most unique part of your rendition of the initial verses of John 1

    It may be able to be said
    apart from the agency of the Word, God made nothing ...
    Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-03-2019 at 04:57 PM.

  11. #9
    tWebber Georg Kaplin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    34
    Amen (Given)
    1
    Amen (Received)
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    It would seem that your explication pushes things in a funny direction ...
    ".. and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else ..."

    The idea conveyed would be that there was nothing created that was not through (the agency of Christ). But this exclusionary concept doesn't exclude 'God', as treated as the superset of the Trinity, being involved in creation. This is like the parallel in Proverbs 8 where creation with initiated through Wisdom -- it is the idea that nothing was created without God's wisdom at work.

    I would suspect that this aspect was the most unique part of your rendition of the initial verses of John 1

    It may be able to be said
    apart from the agency of the Word, God made nothing ...
    Thanks for the response. I am using the NA28 Greek text. Also, it is not quite accurate to speak of "the agency." In fact, in the text there are two agencies. One is instrumental agency in the dative case and also intermediate agency in the genitive case.

    What Greek text are your comments based on? To discuss this translation you need to be looking at the NA28, including the punctuation.
    Two new papers on Greek Exegesis:
    https://independent.academia.edu/GeorgKaplin

  12. #10
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoCal!!!
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,741
    Amen (Given)
    293
    Amen (Received)
    638
    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
    Thanks for the response. I am using the NA28 Greek text. Also, it is not quite accurate to speak of "the agency." In fact, in the text there are two agencies. One is instrumental agency in the dative case and also intermediate agency in the genitive case.

    What Greek text are your comments based on? To discuss this translation you need to be looking at the NA28, including the punctuation.
    I'm not able to address issues from the Greek (so I avoided offering a translation), but my concern was your the reach of your "expositional rendering "(using the term from Tabibito).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •