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John 1:1-4 - A new translation

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life NRSV
    without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. KJV

    3 παντα Everything δι through αυτου of him εγενετο it came to be και and χωρις without* αυτου of him εγενετο it came to be ουδε not even εν one (thing) ο which γεγονεν it came to be 4 εν in αυτω him ζωη life ην was being και and η the ζωη life ην was being το the φως light των of the ανθρωπων men

    Extracting the English
    Word Literal ... KJV ... NRSV
    everything ... All things ... All things
    came to be through him ... were made by him ... came into being through him
    and without him ... and without him ... and without him
    not even one ... (was) not any thing (made) ... not one thing
    which has come to be ... that was made ... came into being.
    not in original ... not in King James ... What has come into being
    in him life was being ... In him was life ... in him was life
    and the life was the light of men ... and the life was the light of men ... and the life was the light of all people.

    The additional words change the meaning of verse 4, which in the NRSV becomes: "In him, life came into being" or "Life originates from him." The balance of creation is eliminated from consideration - the altered verse 4 doesn't expand on the record of verse 3. By contrast, the additional "was made" in the KJV does no more than make the adjustments that are necessary for 17th century grammatical considerations. Note that KJV alters γεγονεν (has come to be) to past passive ([that] was made), rather than preserving the perfect tense. NRSV preserves the perfect (came into being), but not in a readily identifiable form. The NRSV change from "in him life was being" to "in him was life" is quite a trap, for all that it is technically valid.
    I don't know how my comment about the NRSV and KJV differences regarding punctuation turned you towards a discussion of the NRSV. There are no added words in the Greek. The difference is where one finds the period.

    I used the NA28 in my translation. The OP is about my translation. Does your criticism apply to it? Here is your chance to change my mind. I have the ability to change it, and will if you show me I am wrong. I am grateful that you labeled it as "expository." In fact, I may make two translations, or rearrange the footnotes.

    Now, lets look at how the punctuation changes the meaning of the text.

    The ancient punctuation with a total of 26 English words:
    John 1:1 ᾽Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
    2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν

    3 πάντα δι αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο
    All Things through him came to be 7

    καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. PERIOD
    and apart from him not one thing thing came to be. 11

    ὃ γέγονεν 4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν
    what came to be in him was life 8




    The newly changed punctuation with a total of 26 words:
    John 1:1 ᾽Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
    2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν

    3 πάντα δι αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο
    All Things through him came to be 7

    καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν
    and apart from him not one thing thing came to be 11

    ὃ γέγονεν PERIOD
    that came to be. 4

    4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν
    in him was life 4


    There are no extra works in Greek or English.

    However, the early quotes from Church Fathers are all the ancient (non KJV) punctuation.

    That being said, MY translation from the OP is certainly a valid one and I will defend it.

    What is more interesting is Danker's gloss of "and so" for και. Even if we just see it as "and" there are three states and not two. There is no grammatical justification for assuming that that is said about the Word at 1:1b and c is already true at 1:1a. In fact, at 1:1a, it also cannot be said that the Word was προς τον θεον.
    Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 06-04-2019, 09:50 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      I can't see how the points you say are found in the early church fathers make sense in context.

      The thing that came to be in him was life = Life (having not previously been in him) arose (or even, was generated) in him.

      Can you provide references to the Early Church Fathers' comments?
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #18
        ουδε and not
        εν one (adj: nom, neut)
        ο which (reflxv prn: nom)
        γεγονεν (is/has become)
        εν in
        αυτω him

        In your rendering,
        It seems to me that there is an adjective left hanging and severed from a perfectly good pronoun that it should be attached to. Then too, the reflexive pronoun is disconnected from what rightly should be its antecedent.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          I can't see how the points you say are found in the early church fathers make sense in context.

          The thing that came to be in him was life = Life (having not previously been in him) arose (or even, was generated) in him.

          Can you provide references to the Early Church Fathers' comments?
          I do know that the reason for the change to the new punctuation (as in the KJV and Textus receptus Greek) was that there was a group called πνευμομαχιαν (sp?) which means fighters against the spirit. They were teaching that the Holy Spirit was the first thing created by the Father through the Word. The change in punctuation was a response to that.

          The older punctuation, as found in the NA28 did not pose a problem even for Athanasius, who is one of the ones who quotes it as does the NA28.

          There is a footnote in the ANF that interprets Athanasius as having the belief that when the Word was in the beginning, he was "in" the Father and then came forth as a person. I believe that Patristics scholars call this the two stage generation of the Word. Athanasius explains that because the Word was generated before time, he was eternal.

          This is all ad-hoc off the top of my head. I don't recall the exact verbiage.
          Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 06-04-2019, 05:20 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            ουδε and not
            εν one (adj: nom, neut)
            ο which (reflxv prn: nom)
            γεγονεν (is/has become)
            εν in
            αυτω him

            In your rendering,
            It seems to me that there is an adjective left hanging and severed from a perfectly good pronoun that it should be attached to. Then too, the reflexive pronoun is disconnected from what rightly should be its antecedent.
            There you go again, testing me! Nice one. You do know that adjectives modify nouns, not pronouns right? Sure you do!

            Now, what you quote cannot possibly be from my translation. That is because there is a full stop before .ο γεγενον

            So what you have done, as far as the NA28 is concerned, is to have taken ουδε εν from the previous sentence and put it at the beginning of this one:

            ο γεγονεν εν αυτω ζωη ην

            Let me parse this for you. The verb γεγονεν is substantivized with ο, which you incorrectly call a reflexive pronoun. It is a relative pronoun. The ο γεγονεν means something to the effect of "what has come into existence." The entire sentence is a predicate nominative. "Life" is being predicated to what came into existence. Both are nominative. The "in him" is a prepositional phrase that is "instrumental dative." The agency expressed need not be personal, but sometimes is, unlike intermediate personal agency. I see these two agencies contrasted in these verses. One must not conflate them.

            Another interesting point here is that the life "comes into existence" with the verb γινομαι, and the verb that the stative inperfect form of ειμι, ην is associated with it. This shows that when John used ην it cannot be said it must be applied to something that always existed, even in the prologue.

            For another example look at verse 10, when in 9, the Word is coming into the world, and then in 10 εν τω κοσμω ην. The Word was not always in the world and the verb ην is being used in an inceptive context, just like the verse we are discussing

            That's enough for now.

            Best regard,
            Georg
            Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 06-04-2019, 05:56 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Is there any insight to be gleaned from your translation?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                Is there any insight to be gleaned from your translation?
                I always start with the pure grammar and then look at contexts that fit the grammar. One should always see what the Greek can possibly say, even multiple possibilities and then choose from them to decide what it means. That is my hermeneutic.

                But since you asked, I just realized something that I had not thought about. Tabibito just asked me how the ECF might view the text. Then I thought about Athanasius. I had never put the two concepts ("and so", and the Athanasius view) together, but it fits perfectly with his two-stage generation of the Logos.

                The insight I was looking for in this forum are to gain from knowledgeable persons who are as passionate about the subject, as I am.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
                  This is my own personal translation. Comments are welcomed.


                  J 1:1 The Word was in the beginning; And so [1] the Word was with God and so the Word was divine. This one was with God in the beginning.

                  All things were made [2] through the personal agency of [3] the Word, and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else.

                  But the life that was the light of men was made [4] in him [5].

                  ------
                  [1] Και, “and so” J 1:1 - The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Frederick William Danker (Danker)
                  [2] Or “God made all things” - Louw-Nida χωρις: It would be wrong to restructure Jn 1.3 to read 'he made everything in all creation,' for in the Scriptures God is spoken of as the Creator, but the creation was done 'through the Word
                  [3] Ibid, Danker, δια, personal agency, J 1:3 [4] By God
                  [5] in, by means of the Word
                  "Divine" is an adjective, you would have expected θεῖος at John 1:1c if that were the case.

                  A caveat: if by "divine" you have an indefinite sense in mind (as in "a divine thing/person") then the translation is apt. But you should clarify that.

                  Comment

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