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This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
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John 1:1-4 - A new translation
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It is good to see the confirmation of the Trinity here, isn't it?
Some people have sought to obscure Christ Jesus as a unique person within the Trinity godhead. But such efforts lose traction rather quickly.
This passage is interesting because the Divinity of Christ is presented in a fashion unique from the OT psalm which says "you are as gods."
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J 1:1 The Word was in the beginning;
And so [1] the Word was with God and so the Word was divine.
This one was with God in the beginning.
All things were made [2] through the personal agency of [3] the Word, and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else.
But the life that was the light of men was made [4] in him [5].
και: and, moreover, also
η ζωη (NOM) ην το φως (NOM) των ανθρωπων: And here - two nouns with articles separated by and sharing the same verb ... which frequently indicates a metaphorical usage for the second noun in the pair. The life was (one way or another) the light of men.
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I'll accept that και can mean "and so" - I only have the abridged TDNT, which doesn't include a write-up on και, and LSJ doesn't list "and so" as an interpretation. However, BDAG lists "and so" as possible in the context of outcome from an action, a context that is not evident here.
?? John 1:3B says just that: without him nothing was made that came to be. 1 Cor 8:6 cannot be ignored, Colossians 1:16-17 doesn't stand alone, but its ambiguity is resolved by John 1:3B and 1 Cor 8:6.Last edited by tabibito; 06-03-2019, 01:43 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Faber View PostI'll stick with the NASB, except maybe the word order in the last part of verse 1: "and GOD was the Word". I like how the Greek puts the emphasis in the word order.
Another thought...
Maybe apart from using the word order as conventional in translation history, the English ordering of "Word was God" may be due to a convention of giving priority position to the thing being identified. In John 1, it is the Word being described or identified, instead of the God being described or identified.
Maybe in a related convention, we present (in the English) the thing of interest first and then follow that with an attribute. So we say that God is Love -- which shows Love as an attribute (but, here, maybe an essence).Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-03-2019, 02:24 PM.
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Tabitito,
The gloss of "and so" is certainly the most unique part of my translation. I have attached the entry for και from Danker's Concise Lexicon. Danker was the senior editor for BDAG and the author of this lexicon.
DANKER-J11-KAI.jpg
It's not that the sense of "and so" is merely possible, but that Danker says that that is what it means specifically at John 1:1.
Here is a section in BDAG which has "and so."
ζ. to introduce a result that comes fr. what precedes: and then, and so
'However, BDAG lists "and so" as possible in the context of outcome from an action, a context that is not evident here.'
But, I don't see anything about an "action." Is that the section you got this from?
I wanted to explore, "and so" because that is the gloss Danker selected. The Concise Lexicon is probably the most recent high quality Greek Lexicon available to us. It also highlights something that I believe most people miss in this verse, in fact I missed it for years. Many assume that John 1:1 is one state. The verb ειμι is a stative verb. But it occurs three times, and και separates it into three states, not one. So one may not assume that what is described in John 1:1c was true at John 1:1a.
That's enough for now.Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 06-03-2019, 06:01 PM.
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Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View PostThis is my own personal translation. Comments are welcomed.
...
All things were made [2] through the personal agency of [3] the Word, and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else.
...
".. and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else ..."
The idea conveyed would be that there was nothing created that was not through (the agency of Christ). But this exclusionary concept doesn't exclude 'God', as treated as the superset of the Trinity, being involved in creation. This is like the parallel in Proverbs 8 where creation with initiated through Wisdom -- it is the idea that nothing was created without God's wisdom at work.
I would suspect that this aspect was the most unique part of your rendition of the initial verses of John 1
It may be able to be said
apart from the agency of the Word, God made nothing ...Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-03-2019, 06:57 PM.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIt would seem that your explication pushes things in a funny direction ...
".. and so apart from him nothing was made through the personal agency of anyone else ..."
The idea conveyed would be that there was nothing created that was not through (the agency of Christ). But this exclusionary concept doesn't exclude 'God', as treated as the superset of the Trinity, being involved in creation. This is like the parallel in Proverbs 8 where creation with initiated through Wisdom -- it is the idea that nothing was created without God's wisdom at work.
I would suspect that this aspect was the most unique part of your rendition of the initial verses of John 1
It may be able to be said
apart from the agency of the Word, God made nothing ...
What Greek text are your comments based on? To discuss this translation you need to be looking at the NA28, including the punctuation.
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Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View PostThanks for the response. I am using the NA28 Greek text. Also, it is not quite accurate to speak of "the agency." In fact, in the text there are two agencies. One is instrumental agency in the dative case and also intermediate agency in the genitive case.
What Greek text are your comments based on? To discuss this translation you need to be looking at the NA28, including the punctuation.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostI'm not able to address issues from the Greek (so I avoided offering a translation), but my concern was your the reach of your "expositional rendering "(using the term from Tabibito).Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 06-03-2019, 07:54 PM.
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What has come into being ⁴ in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. NRSV
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. KJV
"came into being through" is more literally accurate than "were made by", but meanings are commensurate unless (negated by context) "through" is considered to be reference to a conduit rather than an agent. "What has come into being" (bolded) doesn't exist in the manuscripts - as noted in footnote {a}, which gives a rendering commensurate with the KJV.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhat has come into being ⁴ in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. NRSV
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. KJV
"came into being through" is more literally accurate than "were made by", but meanings are commensurate unless (negated by context) "through" is considered to be reference to a conduit rather than an agent. "What has come into being" (bolded) doesn't exist in the manuscripts - as noted in footnote {a}, which gives a rendering commensurate with the KJV.
My translation is from the NA28 and should be evaluated on that basis. That being said, when you say "What has come into being" (bolded) doesn't exist in the manuscripts," you use a double edged sword. That statement is equally true of the KJV rendering as well.
What seals the deal for me is that the NA28 punctuation was used until very late in miniscule manuscripts which did have the punctuation. In fact, Athanasius used it as well. I made a project a couple decades ago to demonstrate this fact. If one takes the critical edition and supplies dates to the quotations, it becomes quite apparent which punctuation was the original. Here are my references from the UBS3.
UBS3.jpg
So when we plot these dates, the graphic is undeniable.
UBS3Graph.jpg
But, as I said, my translation is with respect to the NA28.
I also look forward to your comments on the rendering of και with "and so" which is how Danker applied it to John 1:1.
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without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life NRSV
without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. KJV
3 παντα Everything δι through αυτουofhim εγενετο it came to be και and χωρις without* αυτουofhim εγενετο it came to be ουδε not even εν one (thing) ο which γεγονεν it came to be 4 εν in αυτω him ζωη life ην was being και and η the ζωη life ην was being το the φως light των of the ανθρωπων men
Extracting the EnglishWord Literal ... KJV ... NRSV
everything ... All things ... All things
came to be through him ... were made by him ... came into being through him
and without him ... and without him ... and without him
not even one ... (was) not any thing (made) ... not one thing
which has come to be ... that was made ... came into being.
not in original ... not in King James ... What has come into being
in him life was being ... In him was life ... in him was life
and the life was the light of men ... and the life was the light of men ... and the life was the light of all people.
The additional words change the meaning of verse 4, which in the NRSV becomes: "In him, life came into being" or "Life originates from him." The balance of creation is eliminated from consideration - the altered verse 4 doesn't expand on the record of verse 3. By contrast, the additional "was made" in the KJV does no more than make the adjustments that are necessary for 17th century grammatical considerations. Note that KJV alters γεγονεν (has come to be) to past passive ([that] was made), rather than preserving the perfect tense. NRSV preserves the perfect (came into being), but not in a readily identifiable form. The NRSV change from "in him life was being" to "in him was life" is quite a trap, for all that it is technically valid.Last edited by tabibito; 06-04-2019, 01:20 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Side note: Didn't the NRSV translation teams spend 70 years or so trying to convince everyone that Junia was a man? And having failed in that effort, then reworked the wording to make Andronicus and Junia simply "considered noteworthy by the apostles," rather than being "exemplary apostles"? I'm not absolutely sure that it was the NRSV translators, but memory says it is so.
(Ran out of time for editing the prior post.)1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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