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Thread: Intimations of Exegesis

  1. #11
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    I can't see any clear response to Enns in the comments by Wilren/Wright. Wright highlights some important doctrines (like our ultimate resurrection) but his metanarratives often seem off the mark. For example, I don't remember any passages which suggest Israel to be tasked with the effort of bringing salvation to the nations.
    How about,

    Scripture Verse: Genesis 26:4-5


    4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”

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    Or,

    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 66:18-20


    18 “And I, because of what they have planned and done, am about to come and gather the people of all nations and languages, and they will come and see my glory.

    19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your people, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the Lord. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    More specifically, I don't see Deut 27 to 30, as a whole, being brought into focus from Paul's mention of Deut 30 in Romans 10.
    I'm not sure I get your point. Paul seems to be framing Deut 30 as a prophetic word from Moses concerning the return from Exile (and to be clear, Paul's reading is not unique in this regard, as other 2nd Temple writings make clear).
    Last edited by Adrift; 06-05-2019 at 07:51 AM.

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Genesis 26:4-5

    4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”
    We know, based on first century events, that the blessing was through the offspring Jesus. The English translation conveys the sense that this blessing was passively brought to nations -- not that the Hebrew people would actively do this. There was no task by the Hebrew people which could ever have made them active in creating salvation for the nations.
    Wright has improperly proposed this metanarrative.


    Scripture Verse: Isaiah 66:18-20 ...
    Isaiah 66 seems to point to the era of the Messiah. So this passage doesn't qualify as a description of a task assigned to the whole Hebrew people.


    Concerning Deut 27-30...
    Paul's use of Deut 30 didn't address any return from exile. And why not extend the Deut 30 to incude Deut 32, which spoke of the people lacking faithfulness? Paul wasn't obligated to the 2nd Temple writings ... and these writings would be of minimal benefit to understand Paul's doctrines since the Messianic message was significantly different from the Jewish cultural expectations of that era.

  3. #13
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    We know, based on first century events, that the blessing was through the offspring Jesus. The English translation conveys the sense that this blessing was passively brought to nations -- not that the Hebrew people would actively do this. There was no task by the Hebrew people which could ever have made them active in creating salvation for the nations.
    Wright has improperly proposed this metanarrative.




    Isaiah 66 seems to point to the era of the Messiah. So this passage doesn't qualify as a description of a task assigned to the whole Hebrew people.


    Concerning Deut 27-30...
    Paul's use of Deut 30 didn't address any return from exile. And why not extend the Deut 30 to incude Deut 32, which spoke of the people lacking faithfulness? Paul wasn't obligated to the 2nd Temple writings ... and these writings would be of minimal benefit to understand Paul's doctrines since the Messianic message was significantly different from the Jewish cultural expectations of that era.
    I don't think Wright is saying the whole Hebrew people were going to accomplish salvation for Pagans/Gentiles. Rather, God's Law was going to prepare Israel (generally) for the Messiah's coming. Or else, why bother with making Jesus born to the Jews? He could have simply done Melchizedek 2.0.

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    tWebber
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    I recall Wright saying that Jesus accomplished what the Jewish people were supposed to do.

    It is almost okay to say that the law was to prepare Israel for the coming of the Messiah. But the law cut both ways. In some ways, the law kept Israel from falling too quickly into bad behavior. In the other way, the law brought forth wrath (Rom 4:15).

    It seems that God brought forth Jesus through the Hebrew lineage so that the Messiah would be well-identified through the scripture ... that the identity of the Messiah would be clear through the historical writings.

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Seems to me that what Enns describes as Paul "winging it" is simply him practicing standard 2nd Temple Jewish Midrash, likely as taught to him by Gamaliel or through his vocation as a Pharisee. Imbuing Old Testament passages with a fuller meaning is Midrash 101.
    This is how I've always understood it, that the New Testament writers were engaging in a widely used and accepted style of Old Testament interpretation that looked for parallels rather than overt predictions, and that none of it would have been seen as unusual or suspicious by the contemporary audience.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. Amen Adrift, Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  7. #16
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This is how I've always understood it, that the New Testament writers were engaging in a widely used and accepted style of Old Testament interpretation that looked for parallels rather than overt predictions, and that none of it would have been seen as unusual or suspicious by the contemporary audience.
    Once again this illustrates the need to understand the context and the society it was originally addressed to rather than to shoehorn it into our own cultural expectations and understandings.

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Once again this illustrates the need to understand the context and the society it was originally addressed to rather than to shoehorn it into our own cultural expectations and understandings.
    Peter Enns being a well regarded, if not very controversial, Old Testament scholar, you'd expect him to know that. I suspect he does, but that he's looking for ways to find disharmony in scripture and perhaps, in the end (like Bart Ehrman), to reject it entirely.

  9. Amen KingsGambit, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  10. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This is how I've always understood it, that the New Testament writers were engaging in a widely used and accepted style of Old Testament interpretation that looked for parallels rather than overt predictions, and that none of it would have been seen as unusual or suspicious by the contemporary audience.
    Is such form of interpretation thought to exclude the sense that certain prophecies were being overtly fulfilled in Christ?

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    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    Is such form of interpretation thought to exclude the sense that certain prophecies were being overtly fulfilled in Christ?
    Well, no. But I think it's the case that a lot of what the New Testament writers cite as fulfilled prophecy was not explicitly predictive.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  12. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Well, no. But I think it's the case that a lot of what the New Testament writers cite as fulfilled prophecy was not explicitly predictive.
    one thing I heard ( a long time ago) was that the Jews had formed many expectations or requirements that they expected to be characteristic of the Messiah. So we might expect this of passages such as "out of Egypt I have called my Son" or that "he would be called a Nazarite." I believe that some specific types of miracles were expected of the Messiah -- probably of healing a person who was born blind. The drawback on this stuff I heard ... I don't have the original recording/lecture and I don't have scholarly sources.

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