Originally posted by myth
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Police officers nationwide flagged for racist and violent social media posts
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe fact Shuny, is that blacks for instance are more violent than whites, so they are going to have more interaction with police, and most likely more violent encounters. And these numbers hold for assaults and robberies as the link shows.
The message "black people are more violent than white people" is simply unjust and untrue.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostBody Cams are needed - why doesn't the ACLU want them?
Police body cameras have the potential to serve as a much-needed police oversight tool at a time of a growing recognition that the United States has a real problem with police violence. But if the technology is to be effective at providing oversight, reducing police abuses, and increasing community trust, it is vital that they be deployed with good policies to ensure they accomplish those goals. Without good policies, they risk becoming just another police surveillance device—and one with very real potential to invade privacy. Especially important are policies governing when the cameras are turned on, and who has access to the footage and under what conditions.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostAccording to a critique article in Lawenforcementtoday.com:
The article claims that the total number of Law enforcement posters found to be posting something that was or could be construed as racist was 400....even assuming all were active officers that's 400 out of approx. 900,000 officers....so, nothing to see here...
If they sampled 400 officers and all 400 were behaving this way, that's bad (100%). If they sampled 1600 officers, and 400 were acting this way, that is also pretty bad (25%). Even 400 out of 4000 would be pretty ugly (10%). But I can't find the size of the sample space, and I can find the methodology for selecting. The problem with using Facebook is it is not random. For all we know, there is a social dynamic that results in racist people posting more on Facebook than those who are not. Anecdotally, that might make sense - but if someone is going to make a statistical claim, they should follow good statistical procedures.
FWIW...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI strongly recommend that people divorce skin color from this discussion. It leaves the impression that blackness is somehow causally linked to violence. There is no evidence that violence is causally linked to skin color. Correlation is not causation. What evidence we have suggests that violence is causally linked to two things: poverty and education. Indeed, segment the racial populations by education and wealth, and the incidence of violence is roughly the same (percentage-wise) for each group across races. In the U.S., for a variety of historical reasons, black people are more likely to be poor and under educated than white people, so the incidence of violence is higher.
The message "black people are more violent than white people" is simply unjust and untrue.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostCan you link the stats on that. And the reason why I brought race into it was because Shuny did. The higher rates of violence in the black community more than likely accounts for the higher rates of violence between blacks and cops.
I don't contest that there is a higher incidence of violence in the black community than the white community as a percentage, and I agree that this is likely one of the primary reasons we see racism in a segment of the police force (as well as the general population). I just think we have to start doing something about breaking the link in people's minds and language between "blackness" and "violence" and reinforcing the link to poverty and education. As long as the link is to "blackness," the question becomes, "what are we going to do about these black people." If the link were made where it belongs, perhaps we would start asking "what are we going to do about poverty and education?"
ETA: Tried a few difference search strings, and finally hit on this. It's not big on stats, and tracking the sources is proving difficult, but it at least discusses the association between socio-economic status (SES) and violence.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-19-2019, 06:19 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't contest that there is a higher incidence of violence in the black community than the white community as a percentage, and I agree that this is likely one of the primary reasons we see racism in a segment of the police force (as well as the general population). I just think we have to start doing something about breaking the link in people's minds and language between "blackness" and "violence" and reinforcing the link to poverty and education. As long as the link is to "blackness," the question becomes, "what are we going to do about these black people." If the link were made where it belongs, perhaps we would start asking "what are we going to do about poverty and education?"
ETA: Tried a few difference search strings, and finally hit on this. It's not big on stats, and tracking the sources is proving difficult, but it at least discusses the association between socio-economic status (SES) and violence.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI wasn't saying that Carp! I was saying that is probably why we see higher rates of violence between blacks and cops, and that has nothing to do with racism but with policing a more violent community.
Originally posted by seer View PostCarp I don't see how your claim would be valid. Blacks commit about 54 percent of the murders in this country for instance, and only about 27% of that the black population lives in poverty. Yet in shear numbers more whites are in poverty, so their murder rate should be higher...
Let's say we break the classes into five groups ranging from lowest to highest SES. Let's assume the incidence of violence is 10, 8, 6, 4, and 2% by class, lowest to highest. Then just using blacks and whites as two races, if the membership in each class (again lowest to highest) for blacks is 40%, 30% 15% 10% and 5%, but the breakdown for whites is 20%, 20%, 20%, 20%, 20%, then in a population of 1000 black people:
400 poorest, 40 violent
300 next poorest, 24 violent
150 mid-class, 9 violent
100 upper class, 4 violent
50 top class, 1 violent
In a population of 1,00 white people, you'd have:
200 poorest, 20 violent
200 next poorest, 16 violent
200 mid-class, 12 violent
200 upper class, 8 violent
200 top class, 4 violent
That's 78/1000 for blacks (7.8%) and 60 violent for whites (6%). The higher incidence in the black population is a function of their differing distribution in the SES groups. Obviously, I made these numbers up to illustrate a point, but there is no doubt there is a differing SES distribution between the races. When you factor in education, it magnifies the effect.
Unless you want to make the argument that the color of one's skin influences whether or not they are violent; that if two people of differing races were raised in identical socioeconomic and educational circumstances, the black one would always be more violent because he's black? I'm assuming that is not the argument you are trying to make?
ETA: A few numbers, though I cannot find a breakdown by SES yet. In 2016, the median income for blacks and Hispanics was about $43K. For whites and Asians it was in the low $70Ks. 10% of whites live in poverty, but 26% and 24% of blacks and Hispanics (respectively) do so. Although high school completion came near par (88 vs 89%), while 33% of whites went on to get college degrees, only 23% of blacks and 15% of Hispanics did so. Population statistics can be found here.
There's some additional crime stats here. Have not worked through them all.
The issue is education and poverty - not skin color.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-19-2019, 08:32 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAgain, violence is not causally linked with skin color. People who are impoverished and have a lower level of education tend to be more violent. It is important that we identify the right "community." The problem is not "blacks." It is "poor and/or under educated people."
There's some additional crime stats here. Have not worked through them all.Last edited by seer; 06-20-2019, 06:41 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by myth View PostHe finally said he's not claiming the first part, and but seems to think he's proven the second.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp, I crunched the numbers last night. There about eight million blacks that live below the poverty line, and fifteen million whites in the US. Then why are violent crimes much higher among blacks? Why do they commit 51% of the total murders? Why don't the poor whites have that record - being that there are about twice as many whites in poverty? Your argument does not make sense. Then there is the subtle suggestion on your part that the poor can not be moral or good.
Your one dimensional crunching numbers to justify your agenda is ENRON book keeping. Poverty alone in reality is not the issue concerning the history, which you choose to ignore of the history of violence against blacks by law enforcement and the history of the problems in the US legal system.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp, I crunched the numbers last night. There about eight million blacks that live below the poverty line, and fifteen million whites in the US. Then why are violent crimes much higher among blacks? Why do they commit 51% of the total murders? Why don't the poor whites have that record - being that there are about twice as many whites in poverty? Your argument does not make sense. Then there is the subtle suggestion on your part that the poor can not be moral or good.
Yes, that is one of the sources I'm using.
Probably negative cultural trends can be lumped under lack of education. Again, going back to Asian culture, a number of Chinese Youtube channels I follow maintain that in mainland China there is a culture of committing what most Westerners would consider impolite behavior. For instance, mainlanders will often loudly hack and clear their throat and/or spit huge gobs in the street. There are also higher incidences of urinating in the street, and if from the countryside, letting one's children defecate on the street or into street trashcans. Slowly as China becomes more modernized and (in a sense) Westernized, this behavior is being curtailed, especially when mainlanders make contact with Chinese in Hong Kong, where British cultural influence has reinforced Western ideas of polite behavior. The reason mainlanders clear their throat and spit on everything is because of old cultural views that clear sinuses/throats are linked to better health. It's an education issue.
That said, I think it goes without saying that poverty can be, and often is the catalysis for criminal behavior. So it isn't wrong, exactly, to point out that poverty and education are largely responsible for criminal behavior.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAre you accusing the high crime rate among blacks because they are black?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by seer View PostCarp, I crunched the numbers last night. There about eight million blacks that live below the poverty line, and fifteen million whites in the US. Then why are violent crimes much higher among blacks? Why do they commit 51% of the total murders? Why don't the poor whites have that record - being that there are about twice as many whites in poverty? Your argument does not make sense. Then there is the subtle suggestion on your part that the poor can not be moral or good.
Yes, that is one of the sources I'm using.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThere isn't anything inherent in black melanin or in black DNA that would make black people more prone to criminal behavior. Even if it could be demonstrated that there is something inherent in their DNA that would make them more prone to aggression (and I've never seen a study that suggested this) that wouldn't translate to criminality. I think one of the unstated causes that go beyond poverty is culture. I've read, for instance, that many poor Asian minority groups tend towards lower crime rates purely because those minority groups tend to be highly collectivist culturally, which means that committing crime will cause you to lose face, not only among those you know, but among your larger community.
Probably negative cultural trends can be lumped under lack of education. Again, going back to Asian culture, a number of Chinese Youtube channels I follow maintain that in mainland China there is a culture of committing what most Westerners would consider impolite behavior. For instance, mainlanders will often loudly hack and clear their throat and/or spit huge gobs in the street. There are also higher incidences of urinating in the street, and if from the countryside, letting one's children defecate on the street or into street trashcans. Slowly as China becomes more modernized and (in a sense) Westernized, this behavior is being curtailed, especially when mainlanders make contact with Chinese in Hong Kong, where British cultural influence has reinforced Western ideas of polite behavior. The reason mainlanders clear their throat and spit on everything is because of old cultural views that clear sinuses/throats are linked to better health. It's an education issue.
That said, I think it goes without saying that poverty can be, and often is the catalysis for criminal behavior. So it isn't wrong, exactly, to point out that poverty and education are largely responsible for criminal behavior.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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