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Thread: Police officers nationwide flagged for racist and violent social media posts

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Can you link the stats on that. And the reason why I brought race into it was because Shuny did. The higher rates of violence in the black community more than likely accounts for the higher rates of violence between blacks and cops.
    Unfortunately, no. I'm citing a study that I read about in an edition of the Harvard Review 3-4 years ago when I still had the subscription. The article was about addressing racism in the corporate environment, and one of the tactics listed by the article was, "replace false information with good information" and it stuck in my head because we were in the beginning of the Trump "truth doesn't matter" era, before that was normalized. I'll continue to look for it and post it if/when I find it.

    I don't contest that there is a higher incidence of violence in the black community than the white community as a percentage, and I agree that this is likely one of the primary reasons we see racism in a segment of the police force (as well as the general population). I just think we have to start doing something about breaking the link in people's minds and language between "blackness" and "violence" and reinforcing the link to poverty and education. As long as the link is to "blackness," the question becomes, "what are we going to do about these black people." If the link were made where it belongs, perhaps we would start asking "what are we going to do about poverty and education?"


    ETA: Tried a few difference search strings, and finally hit on this. It's not big on stats, and tracking the sources is proving difficult, but it at least discusses the association between socio-economic status (SES) and violence.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-19-2019 at 04:19 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I don't contest that there is a higher incidence of violence in the black community than the white community as a percentage, and I agree that this is likely one of the primary reasons we see racism in a segment of the police force (as well as the general population). I just think we have to start doing something about breaking the link in people's minds and language between "blackness" and "violence" and reinforcing the link to poverty and education. As long as the link is to "blackness," the question becomes, "what are we going to do about these black people." If the link were made where it belongs, perhaps we would start asking "what are we going to do about poverty and education?"
    I wasn't saying that Carp! I was saying that is probably why we see higher rates of violence between blacks and cops, and that has nothing to do with racism but with policing a more violent community.


    ETA: Tried a few difference search strings, and finally hit on this. It's not big on stats, and tracking the sources is proving difficult, but it at least discusses the association between socio-economic status (SES) and violence.
    Carp I don't see how your claim would be valid. Blacks commit about 54 percent of the murders in this country for instance, and only about 27% of that the black population lives in poverty. Yet in shear numbers more whites are in poverty, so their murder rate should be higher...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I wasn't saying that Carp! I was saying that is probably why we see higher rates of violence between blacks and cops, and that has nothing to do with racism but with policing a more violent community.
    Again, violence is not causally linked with skin color. People who are impoverished and have a lower level of education tend to be more violent. It is important that we identify the right "community." The problem is not "blacks." It is "poor and/or under educated people."

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Carp I don't see how your claim would be valid. Blacks commit about 54 percent of the murders in this country for instance, and only about 27% of that the black population lives in poverty. Yet in shear numbers more whites are in poverty, so their murder rate should be higher...
    When you break up each race by socioeconomic class, the level of violence across the races, by socioeconomic class, is roughly proportionate. The problem is the higher incidence of poverty and lower education levels among minorities in general. I do not have access to the original numbers, but it is easy to show how that might work numerically.

    Let's say we break the classes into five groups ranging from lowest to highest SES. Let's assume the incidence of violence is 10, 8, 6, 4, and 2% by class, lowest to highest. Then just using blacks and whites as two races, if the membership in each class (again lowest to highest) for blacks is 40%, 30% 15% 10% and 5%, but the breakdown for whites is 20%, 20%, 20%, 20%, 20%, then in a population of 1000 black people:

    400 poorest, 40 violent
    300 next poorest, 24 violent
    150 mid-class, 9 violent
    100 upper class, 4 violent
    50 top class, 1 violent

    In a population of 1,00 white people, you'd have:

    200 poorest, 20 violent
    200 next poorest, 16 violent
    200 mid-class, 12 violent
    200 upper class, 8 violent
    200 top class, 4 violent

    That's 78/1000 for blacks (7.8%) and 60 violent for whites (6%). The higher incidence in the black population is a function of their differing distribution in the SES groups. Obviously, I made these numbers up to illustrate a point, but there is no doubt there is a differing SES distribution between the races. When you factor in education, it magnifies the effect.

    Unless you want to make the argument that the color of one's skin influences whether or not they are violent; that if two people of differing races were raised in identical socioeconomic and educational circumstances, the black one would always be more violent because he's black? I'm assuming that is not the argument you are trying to make?

    ETA: A few numbers, though I cannot find a breakdown by SES yet. In 2016, the median income for blacks and Hispanics was about $43K. For whites and Asians it was in the low $70Ks. 10% of whites live in poverty, but 26% and 24% of blacks and Hispanics (respectively) do so. Although high school completion came near par (88 vs 89%), while 33% of whites went on to get college degrees, only 23% of blacks and 15% of Hispanics did so. Population statistics can be found here.

    There's some additional crime stats here. Have not worked through them all.

    The issue is education and poverty - not skin color.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-19-2019 at 06:32 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Again, violence is not causally linked with skin color. People who are impoverished and have a lower level of education tend to be more violent. It is important that we identify the right "community." The problem is not "blacks." It is "poor and/or under educated people."
    Carp, I crunched the numbers last night. There about eight million blacks that live below the poverty line, and fifteen million whites in the US. Then why are violent crimes much higher among blacks? Why do they commit 51% of the total murders? Why don't the poor whites have that record - being that there are about twice as many whites in poverty? Your argument does not make sense. Then there is the subtle suggestion on your part that the poor can not be moral or good.

    There's some additional crime stats here. Have not worked through them all.
    Yes, that is one of the sources I'm using.
    Last edited by seer; 06-20-2019 at 04:41 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myth View Post
    He finally said he's not claiming the first part, and but seems to think he's proven the second.
    There is no "proof" for anything, but yes those hiding from the facts of history are conveniently ignoring the second issue. They are getting sand in their ears.
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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Carp, I crunched the numbers last night. There about eight million blacks that live below the poverty line, and fifteen million whites in the US. Then why are violent crimes much higher among blacks? Why do they commit 51% of the total murders? Why don't the poor whites have that record - being that there are about twice as many whites in poverty? Your argument does not make sense. Then there is the subtle suggestion on your part that the poor can not be moral or good.
    Are you accusing the high crime rate among blacks because they are black?

    Your one dimensional crunching numbers to justify your agenda is ENRON book keeping. Poverty alone in reality is not the issue concerning the history, which you choose to ignore of the history of violence against blacks by law enforcement and the history of the problems in the US legal system.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Carp, I crunched the numbers last night. There about eight million blacks that live below the poverty line, and fifteen million whites in the US. Then why are violent crimes much higher among blacks? Why do they commit 51% of the total murders? Why don't the poor whites have that record - being that there are about twice as many whites in poverty? Your argument does not make sense. Then there is the subtle suggestion on your part that the poor can not be moral or good.



    Yes, that is one of the sources I'm using.
    There isn't anything inherent in black melanin or in black DNA that would make black people more prone to criminal behavior. Even if it could be demonstrated that there is something inherent in their DNA that would make them more prone to aggression (and I've never seen a study that suggested this) that wouldn't translate to criminality. I think one of the unstated causes that go beyond poverty is culture. I've read, for instance, that many poor Asian minority groups tend towards lower crime rates purely because those minority groups tend to be highly collectivist culturally, which means that committing crime will cause you to lose face, not only among those you know, but among your larger community.

    Probably negative cultural trends can be lumped under lack of education. Again, going back to Asian culture, a number of Chinese Youtube channels I follow maintain that in mainland China there is a culture of committing what most Westerners would consider impolite behavior. For instance, mainlanders will often loudly hack and clear their throat and/or spit huge gobs in the street. There are also higher incidences of urinating in the street, and if from the countryside, letting one's children defecate on the street or into street trashcans. Slowly as China becomes more modernized and (in a sense) Westernized, this behavior is being curtailed, especially when mainlanders make contact with Chinese in Hong Kong, where British cultural influence has reinforced Western ideas of polite behavior. The reason mainlanders clear their throat and spit on everything is because of old cultural views that clear sinuses/throats are linked to better health. It's an education issue.

    That said, I think it goes without saying that poverty can be, and often is the catalysis for criminal behavior. So it isn't wrong, exactly, to point out that poverty and education are largely responsible for criminal behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Are you accusing the high crime rate among blacks because they are black?
    seer never speculated about why. He's just pointing out the simple fact that blacks in America are disproportionately more likely to be perpetrators of violent crime.
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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Carp, I crunched the numbers last night. There about eight million blacks that live below the poverty line, and fifteen million whites in the US. Then why are violent crimes much higher among blacks? Why do they commit 51% of the total murders? Why don't the poor whites have that record - being that there are about twice as many whites in poverty? Your argument does not make sense. Then there is the subtle suggestion on your part that the poor can not be moral or good.

    Yes, that is one of the sources I'm using.
    OK - I have a question. Do you believe a person is intrinsically more or less violent on the basis of the color of their skin (i.e., their racial membership)?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    There isn't anything inherent in black melanin or in black DNA that would make black people more prone to criminal behavior. Even if it could be demonstrated that there is something inherent in their DNA that would make them more prone to aggression (and I've never seen a study that suggested this) that wouldn't translate to criminality. I think one of the unstated causes that go beyond poverty is culture. I've read, for instance, that many poor Asian minority groups tend towards lower crime rates purely because those minority groups tend to be highly collectivist culturally, which means that committing crime will cause you to lose face, not only among those you know, but among your larger community.

    Probably negative cultural trends can be lumped under lack of education. Again, going back to Asian culture, a number of Chinese Youtube channels I follow maintain that in mainland China there is a culture of committing what most Westerners would consider impolite behavior. For instance, mainlanders will often loudly hack and clear their throat and/or spit huge gobs in the street. There are also higher incidences of urinating in the street, and if from the countryside, letting one's children defecate on the street or into street trashcans. Slowly as China becomes more modernized and (in a sense) Westernized, this behavior is being curtailed, especially when mainlanders make contact with Chinese in Hong Kong, where British cultural influence has reinforced Western ideas of polite behavior. The reason mainlanders clear their throat and spit on everything is because of old cultural views that clear sinuses/throats are linked to better health. It's an education issue.

    That said, I think it goes without saying that poverty can be, and often is the catalysis for criminal behavior. So it isn't wrong, exactly, to point out that poverty and education are largely responsible for criminal behavior.
    Thank you for your post. I should be clear that I don't think poverty and education are THE only factors. I agree with your observation about culture. A particular group can be more violent in response to real/perceived violence against them. They may be more violent in response to perceived injustices. Many studies have shown that the crime that results in parole for a white person often results in jail time for the black person. There are an array of factors at work. But skin color, as you note, is NOT one of them. The level of melanin, shape of the nose, type of hair, and all of the other physical manifestations of being black cannot be causally linked to a propensity for violence.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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