Police officers nationwide flagged for racist and violent social media posts

[lilpixieofterror]

I agree it would be nice to have programs that are better thought-through. Unfortunately, by the time a good idea gets through the political and lobbying machine, the result is often less than ideal. Still, as they say, "representative democracy is the worst governing system in the world - except for all the rest."

And I frankly don't see a lot of difference between programs that come from the right or left. They all seem to end up "less than ideal."

The best programs I’ve seen are those with grass roots where involvement happens on a local level vs in the halls of Congress.

[oxmixmudd]

Few people are psychopaths and tend to seek justifications their actions as ‘being for the greater good’ or something to that effect.

It does seem that most government is so bad these days the only way to be able to justify participating in it is to find some way to convince one's self one is working for the greater good.

Either that or just be corrupt to start with


Jim

[Mountain Man]

No. If a debater cites a single, specifically selected person (hence "cherry picking") and offers it as some form of proof for an oft-repeated (hence "meme") inn accuracy, then they have no done much to make their case.

One thing is certain, you are a pro at idly dismissing any piece of information you don't like.

Of course there are other blacks who recognize Democrat reparations for the pandering that it is

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...divisive-sham/

Many of them, but you can start with 165, 161, 151, and 146.

All I see in those posts is a (perhaps deliberate) misreading of seer's position. All he's done is cite official crime statistics without any commentary about why the stats are the way they are. It's you who keeps going on about the link between "blackness" or "being black" and violence to the point that one could reasonably suspect that you are battling your own feelings of racism and are desperate to convince yourself that everybody else feels the same.

[lilpixieofterror]

It does seem that most government is so bad these days the only way to be able to justify participating in it is to find some way to convince one's self one is working for the greater good.

Either that or just be corrupt to start with


Jim

Or try to compare a president you dislike to Armageddon is upon us and when it fails to materialize, pretend it really did or that it’s just around the corner.

[carpedm9587]

The best programs I’ve seen are those with grass roots where involvement happens on a local level vs in the halls of Congress.

Unfortunately, such programs are often extremely limited in their ability to solve widespread options. IMO, the ideal program is one in which the resources of the federal are channeled to support local initiatives, with appropriate oversight in place to ensure resources are not diverted or squandered. If you want to tackle "poverty" nationally, a few local initiatives here and there is not going to do the deed. However, a federally championed and resourced program that is controlled locally provides the motivation for localities to act, and resources they can use to do the work. If the resources are provided on the basis of "matching," that much the better - because it stimulates local contributions and involvement to solve problems.

[carpedm9587]

One thing is certain, you are a pro at idly dismissing any piece of information you don't like.

Of course there are other blacks who recognize Democrat reparations for the pandering that it is

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...divisive-sham/

So now you shift the discussion to a specific program and think this makes the general case you were claiming? You're still cherry picking. For the record, I think the reparations discussion is pointless and ill-advised. I have no idea what the motivation of the individuals is, and I try not to engage in that kind of mind/heart reading. But the entire idea ignores the wide variation in modern realities for those who have a history that traces back to slavery. If you address differences in wealth and education, you will indirectly "make reparations" without creating yet another race-based program.

All I see in those posts is a (perhaps deliberate) misreading of seer's position. All he's done is cite official crime statistics without any commentary about why the stats are the way they are. It's you who keeps going on about the link between "blackness" or "being black" and violence to the point that one could reasonably suspect that you are battling your own feelings of racism and are desperate to convince yourself that everybody else feels the same.

Wow. You guys appear to be dedicated to the proposition of misrepresenting what I am saying (again), all the while accusing me of misrepresenting someone else. I'll leave it to y'all. Further exchanges are fairly clearly futile.

[lilpixieofterror]

Unfortunately, such programs are often extremely limited in their ability to solve widespread options. IMO, the ideal program is one in which the resources of the federal are channeled to support local initiatives, with appropriate oversight in place to ensure resources are not diverted or squandered. If you want to tackle "poverty" nationally, a few local initiatives here and there is not going to do the deed. However, a federally championed and resourced program that is controlled locally provides the motivation for localities to act, and resources they can use to do the work. If the resources are provided on the basis of "matching," that much the better - because it stimulates local contributions and involvement to solve problems.

Habit for Humanity seems to work rather well. The anti slavery movement seems to have ended slavery. The anti segregation movement worked out pretty well too. This is called an ‘opinion’ and you know what they say about those. See the government loves cookie cutter solutions to problems because they are easier to pass. Problem is the US is a diverse place and cookie cutter solutions, implemented by people far removed rarely work as well as intended. The government had had a ‘war on poverty’ going on since Johnson was president and despite trillions of dollars and 5 decades, poverty still exist with poorly ran programs as the end result. As the story about the millionaire successfully getting food stamps shows, it doesn’t seem to work all that well. The government is great at making laws, spending globs of money, and making people feel good. Results well, often are mixed.

[One Bad Pig]

Wow. You guys appear to be dedicated to the proposition of misrepresenting what I am saying (again), all the while accusing me of misrepresenting someone else. I'll leave it to y'all. Further exchanges are fairly clearly futile.

Yes, it's ALWAYS someone else's fault. It's a good thing you're morally superior to us rubes.

[carpedm9587]

Habit for Humanity seems to work rather well.

I didn't say they don't "work." I said they generally don't solve systemic problems. HFH has built some 800,000 homes in the U.S. in 43 years (since 1976). At an average of 20,000 homes a year, that's impressive. At least until you realize that there are 500,000+ homeless people people in the U.S. and until you look at the housing statistics for the U.S. That's when you realize HFH is a great start, but barely making a dent on the problem. A great start is better than nothing, but a comprehensive program to solve the problem would be better.

The anti slavery movement seems to have ended slavery. The anti segregation movement worked out pretty well too.

This is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. Neither of these was a "program" in the sense that was being discussed. It was a movement that started at the local level - with an aim to get the federal government moving and acting to support the initiative with the appropriate laws.

This is called an ‘opinion’ and you know what they say about those. See the government loves cookie cutter solutions to problems because they are easier to pass. Problem is the US is a diverse place and cookie cutter solutions, implemented by people far removed rarely work as well as intended. The government had had a ‘war on poverty’ going on since Johnson was president and despite trillions of dollars and 5 decades, poverty still exist with poorly ran programs as the end result. As the story about the millionaire successfully getting food stamps shows, it doesn’t seem to work all that well. The government is great at making laws, spending globs of money, and making people feel good. Results well, often are mixed.

That is why the local component is critical. The programs you are citing were basically "top-down" dictated and controlled. Instead of saying, "this is the problem that needs to be solved, and these are the metrics that will be used to assess if you've solved them," the programs say "this is how you are to solve this problem," creating a cookie cutter model that inevitably failed. Basic business management practices: give your people the goal, the metrics by which you will assess progress, and the resources they need to do the job. Then get out of the way, providing only oversight to ensure objectives are being met in a timely fashion and resources appropriately used.

[Cow Poke]

Wow. You guys appear to be dedicated to the proposition of misrepresenting what I am saying (again)...

What's the common denominator here, Carpe?

[carpedm9587]

What's the common denominator here, Carpe?

Since you asked a question not directly related to the previous discussion, I'll respond. From my perspective, the common denominator is "TWeb." There is something about the "tenor" or spirit" of this site that makes this kind of argumentation common and acceptable. This is not a dynamic I encounter anywhere else. Of course, I cannot prove that to anyone - so I leave it to you as to whether or not to accept my word for it.

[Cow Poke]

Since you asked a question not directly related to the previous discussion, I'll respond. From my perspective, the common denominator is "TWeb." This is not a dynamic I encounter anywhere else. Of course, I cannot prove that to anyone - so I leave it to you as to whether or not to accept my word for it.

So, why do you treat us differently?

[carpedm9587]

So, why do you treat us differently?

Well...it might be the horses...

[Cow Poke]

Well...it might be the horses...

Do you know what "sealioning" is?

[lilpixieofterror]

I didn't say they don't "work." I said they generally don't solve systemic problems. HFH has built some 800,000 homes in the U.S. in 43 years (since 1976). At an average of 20,000 homes a year, that's impressive. At least until you realize that there are 500,000+ homeless people people in the U.S. and until you look at the housing statistics for the U.S. That's when you realize HFH is a great start, but barely making a dent on the problem. A great start is better than nothing, but a comprehensive program to solve the problem would be better.

And the government had section 8 housing. Many being in poor states with lots of crime because lo and behold, people that make little to no effort to help themselves don’t seem to care much about what they are given. Habit for Humanity shows real good numbers. Roughly 70% saying they achieved greater financial security, 30% no longer needing government assistance (and around 70% of those that still do saying they needed less), and with over 90% reporting greater quality of life. What government programs can boast such success stories? Not very many because when you remove charity from among the community and ship it far away, accountability slips.

This is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. Neither of these was a "program" in the sense that was being discussed. It was a movement that started at the local level - with an aim to get the federal government moving and acting to support the initiative with the appropriate laws.

Which were grass root movements, that inspired nation wide changes. Things pushed by the people up, tend to be more successful than things pushed from the government down.

That is why the local component is critical. The programs you are citing were basically "top-down" dictated and controlled. Instead of saying, "this is the problem that needs to be solved, and these are the metrics that will be used to assess if you've solved them," the programs say "this is how you are to solve this problem," creating a cookie cutter model that inevitably failed. Basic business management practices: give your people the goal, the metrics by which you will assess progress, and the resources they need to do the job. Then get out of the way, providing only oversight to ensure objectives are being met in a timely fashion and resources appropriately used.

The government has had 50 years to make them work. Have they worked yet? The government doesn’t work like a business and upper leaders don’t keep their jobs or get promoted without having feathers in their cap.